Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast, the show that helps swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast. My guest today is Abby Fish. Abby, welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate the time. So you’ve got a background in coaching and a background in working a lot with juniors and teenagers with their swimming, as well as adults too. And I think today it’d be good to chat about what are some of those things that you see in the kids as they develop, as they get older? And what are some of those things that you like to coach and make sure that technically they’ve got in place that will then help them go on to become more successful, better swimmers later on. And we’ll also talk about some things that maybe in some crossover that you see with adults that you’ve coached.

And so like myself, you do a lot of face-to-face coaching. You do a lot of underwater filming and analysis. And so you’ve got a good understanding of that as well. So I think we’ll have a lot to talk about because from what I’ve seen with what you do, there’s quite a crossover with what you do over there in the States, what I do here in Australia. So be interested to get your perspective on quite a few things. So just to start with for those listening, what’s your background in swimming and coaching and how did that all start for you? Yeah, yeah. Well, if we go back to like the first to the first, I started swimming when I was four years old, kind of trying to emulate what my brother was doing in my sister because I’m the baby of our family. They quickly fell in love with the sport and pretty much since I was four, I’ve never really left it. And so, yeah, swimming for me was kind of like my outlet growing up.

I was multi-sported all through middle school and high school. And then in college, I really narrowed my focus into trying to make the Olympic team or tried out for Olympic trials and didn’t do as well as I wanted, which was really disappointing, especially because I kind of like really, you know, like zeroed my focus in and like hyper focused on that goal. But I ended up getting to swim in college here at the University of Georgia which has a great program. They’re well known for producing Olympians quad after quad after quad under like a legendary coach, Jack Barrely. And so, you know, for just like someone who I would say I myself like proclaimed swimming nerd, that was kind of like a really sweet step to have as I was getting older. So, yeah, when I was retiring from my career, I was it was hard for me. I had a shoulder injury. I still loved swimming, but I wasn’t sure how much my shoulder could take

being a butterflyer and it was hard. I was like, I don’t know if I’m really done. I don’t feel like I got everything that I wanted or I didn’t achieve everything that I wanted. So I started coaching kind of coincidingly as I was still training. And then, I don’t know, it was really a natural transition ever since then. So it was like I slowly kind of stepped away or stepped out of the pool myself and then just walked around to the other side and started from there. That’s funny, but I’ve got a fairly sort of similar start. I was I started around about four, I think at my first swim race when I was four, I caught up with my mum and dad on the weekend and they were trying to determine whether it was four or five years old that did my first swim race. And then I just missed out on Olympic trial qualification and then started coaching when I went to university and yeah, but that’s it. I just sort of stepped around the other side, got a qualification to coach

and not that I think I’ll learn much from that qualification, but then started to figure it out as I went and have been coaching ever since. So it’s yeah, fairly sort of similar, similar sort of storyline there. And what what is it about coaching that you found to be different than the swimming part? So obviously it’s the same skill, it’s swimming, but then you have to teach it. What what were some of those early lessons that you realised or learnt when you began your coaching career? Yeah, so I would say like for me, the one thing that I think separates coaching, but there’s still a little bit of crossover from like my own personal swimming

was like I really enjoyed the relationship side. But for me at the beginning, like seeing the little kids like age group kids, younger kids coming into the pool and being so excited to go to practice or talk to their coaches, you know, and it was fun. Was it the reminder that I needed when I was so, you know, kind of like hyper focused on the Olympic team is everything to me like this is what I want. So just let me know that there’s more aid of life and there was also more to swimming. So that relational side is something that I still hold really strongly and even before we started like officially recording this podcast, we were talking about like the business and how you felt kind of like your digital business wasn’t a real business until you started doing like in person things. And I can totally resonate with that in a lot of ways because when I first started coaching, you know, I was like, oh, I love the relationship side.

And then I went into this track of like, and I still have it like I want to be virtually, you know, very well known as a coach and like be able to help people no matter where they live. But I used to think that that was the only thing I wanted to do. And there’s only so much of, you know, a relationship and really that athlete coach, like dynamic that you can get through a computer screen. So it took me a while to like get back to the original reason that I started coaching and also the reason that I like it. And, you know, I’ve enjoyed my teammates. Like I like being part of something that’s like bigger than myself, that you put a screen in between you and someone else. Covid’s probably a great example of like all these random plastic things and areas. It’s it just is not as I don’t know. It’s not as easy to relate to someone when you have that barrier between you. Yeah, I’ve certainly found that as well where it’s the and I found

that over the last 18 months when ran very few face to face clinics when we weren’t able to and when I could finally get back in person to the to the half day clinics that we do here. It’s like, oh, my God, this is I feel like I can come up with new ideas. I feel like I know how to coach again because doing that for yeah, for 18 months, I’ve really found it hard to look. I could still coach and I think I was still able to help people with it. But yeah, it’s just there’s something about doing it at a pool with other people that makes a big difference. And like I some of the best relationships or best friendships that I’ve developed have been through through swimming because you go through some tough sessions together, especially as like an age group squad where you might be swimming eight, nine, 10 times a week. You develop some really strong friendships and bonds that way. And then I think of the camps that that we’ve run in the past

where we’ve had up to twenty, twenty two adults at a time in a week long camp over in Thailand and Hawaii and and also up in Queensland here where it’s like, yeah, it’s just it’s such a great experience. And you yeah. And I’m friends with people who came to our first camp about six or seven years ago in in Thailand and continue to being contact with them with them today. And it’s yeah, it’s it’s an important part of coaching and like the technical side, like knowing knowing your craft, very important. But I think the relationship side is probably more important because if they don’t trust you, if they don’t like you, then they’re probably not going to listen. And then secondly, it’s well, how do you? How do you convey those things that you know? And how do you get someone to actually take action on them and implement them? So the technical side of things is one small component. Yeah, no, totally. I agree.

And I, you know, I think like we even kind of touched on this before, too. Like I used to think that I had like kind of proved myself on deck, you know, being a young coach, I think there’s a lot of like, well, I want to stand up and be able to be respected around all these other coaches. You had a female dynamic into that, too. And then, you know, also swimming at an elite level, it’s like, well, you kind of have this.

I don’t know if it’s like it’s like a kind of facade. That’s not the right word, but you have this thought that you really know everything and you know how to do everything. And so like combine all those things together when I was first coaching, you know, I was like, I was totally all about like trying to get the knowledge out of my head and, you know, put the numbers, you know, name, drop, like whatever it was. And it’s like some people don’t care about any of that. I mean, some people do. But like the girl that I coached today, who came into town

to do like one on one lesson with me, you know, she’s like, who’s that Olympian from like 1996? Like she doesn’t care, you know, she just wants to know like whatever that I’m talking about, like how does that actually apply to her?

So, yeah, I definitely slowed down. I spend more time listening, you know, I genuinely have always cared about all my clients and swimmers that I work with. But it’s changed the dynamic. It’s not so much of me feeling like I need to deserve the space in the room, but like, no, I can take space. But it doesn’t necessarily mean I always need to be like talking about space. That’s so funny. I have in the past, I’ve done clinics and I’ve had junior swimmers there, might be 11, 12, 13. And I’ll reference, say, and Thorpe, I might reference Michael Phelps if I’m talking about a certain aspect of their stroke. And I’ll say some of these names. And to me, it’s like, of course, I know who they are, but these kids have got no idea, some of them, no idea who Michael Phelps is. And he’s like, he’s still fairly recent, but not recent enough for these kids to know who he is. And it’s like, all right, well, there you go.

Like, yeah, they couldn’t care less who I competed with or anything like that. So it really is like, it’s, can you help them? And if you can, then, you know, that’s, that’s the main thing they probably care about is can you make them, can you make them better, not, not what, how fast you can swim, not, not who you know, but that’s right. As a coach starting out, I think because you perhaps lack the runs on the board as a, as a coach and you’re still figuring out, you try and sometimes you rely on, rely on that stuff to try and give you the credibility that only comes with time spent as a coach. Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. It’s kind of funny. I was around one of my, he’s a mentor of mine, but I would say more of like an old school coach, like the, you know, the technology is an annoyance to him versus like a, you know, like an advantage. And when I was first trying to tell me all the stuff I was doing online, like I’m speaking

like lingo that it’s like, I’m sure you totally understand what he was like, you just need to go coach, like, go get on deck and coach. And I was like, I am coaching by the same time I’m like worried about my like SEO optimization of like my blah, blah, blah videos. And he’s like, just go coach. I was like, but at the same time, like, yes, but there’s this element of like this online kind of presence, you know, digital business that I wanted to have that I was like, I needed to learn all this other stuff that doesn’t go with coaching, but it helps facilitate the information flow from coaching. So yeah, I will always remember that because I was like, he is I literally walked away from my conversation, like he is so confused on like, what I’m actually trying to do. And I was like, there people are this confused. And like, my customers are probably confused. And so I took that as like more of a learning moment. I giggled. But I was like,

alright, I need to clean up a little bit. But this needs to make sense.

Yeah, it’s I’ve found over the last, the last couple of years that I’ve tried to make things as simple as as possible, because I’ve had YouTube comments on some of my videos that I’ve read on God, that is so confusing what you’re whatever you’re talking about there, like someone trying to explain this, I guess, maybe the same thing or something similar to what I’ve explained in that video. And I’m looking at I can’t I can’t interpret it. So it’s like, well, if I can’t interpret, I’ve been coaching for 15 years now, maybe 16 years, then, then like a swimmer who’s started been swimming for a year isn’t going to be able to do it. So I’ve tried to keep it as simple as as simple as possible. In terms of keeping it simple. So for your coaching is there any sorts of perhaps, principles or fundamentals that you’ll often start with when you’re coaching people or any, any of those things that come to mind with really no

matter who you’re working with, some things that you’re trying to get across to the swimmer that you’re working with? Yeah, I would say like, so the first thing that I always look at is kind of like the midsection of the body, I really am into body line. And how does the body, like sit in the water? Because I don’t think it really matters, like it does to be specific on what someone’s goals are and what their stroke is or the race that they’re looking for. But, you know, like you could be a breaststroke or any of you have a crap body line, then like, your breaststroke is not going to be fast. So I always work from the center, and then kind of go out to the, you know, hyper specifics. And like, you know, I saw a blog on your website that was like, the high elbow catch is really hard to get into. And it is. But like when you dive into that, like, more like, biomechanical side of swimming and the people that speak, I think hardcore technique all the time,

like, they always focus on those insane details, which like, not a lot of people can do. And it creates a lot of buzz, you know, there might be that one swimmer that’s super hyper mobile that has that ability to do all that. But then it’s like, well, what’s going on with their body or how is their body line situated? Can they even float? Like, that’s more important to me, I think you get like a bigger bank for your buck focusing layer and then seeing how to manipulate that and then how you manipulate it or if you get it any better than like working out to the, to the smaller arms and legs.

Yeah, it’s a quote that I heard. I can’t remember who I heard it from, but it’s the you should swim from the inside out, meaning it’s got to start from your core, and then it can move out to the extremities because without that core or body line, without without that in place, then, you know, you’re just going to be disconnected and things won’t work well together. So yeah, it’s got to start from the inside out. And the other sort of like the three words posture line balance, I think it’s Richard quick coach in the States used to always sort of talk about posture line and balance. And that it’s such a great starting point because with all of those in place, again, then you can work on the catch and those those other things. So is there is there any sort of any ways that you would typically go about helping people with their body line? Yeah, I mean, I kind of already gave maybe like a little too bit of that away. But some of the

first things I do is take someone, especially if you’re looking at like adult swimmers, I feel like a lot of times unless they have a swimming pass, they don’t, they miss a lot of those like fundamental components of a learn swim program like mowing bubbles, like floating on your back, floating on your stomach, like understanding how their body responds in the water. And so, you know, at first, I feel like always get a little bit of like grumbling when it’s like I’m dealing with a older athlete. And I’m like, can you float me like no? And it’s like, okay, but like you realize like that is essentially what you’re doing. And if you can’t float, then you’re going to be doing things in your strokes to like survive through that stroke, because, you know, subconsciously your body is like, well, I don’t want to drown. So like, even though that person fully knows how to swim, and probably can swim pretty well, like there’s

still that animalistic side of humans that it’s like, if you’re not comfortable in this water environment, then it’s not going to make for the smoothest of strokes. So I’ll do different drills that have to do with like, kind of air cycling, how you should breathe, how to be more comfortable with like a lower heart rate, trying to get people to float as well as they can, you know, just getting back to those like fundamental stages of a learned swim process. Because, you know, if someone learns how to swim through the internet, a lot of times that’s not really involved in adult swimming videos. I don’t know if that’s something you have specific to your videos. I don’t want to say it like concretely, but I haven’t seen a whole lot of that with people that are like, oh, I just bought this video set and taught me how to swim. I’m like, that’s amazing that you learned how to swim from a video set. But let’s take now what you

learned and kind of refine it a little bit. Yeah, we, I mean, I, I normally work with people who can swim, and we’ve just finished filming like a beginner beginner freestyle course that starts with the breathing and the balance and that sort of thing. For those that are like already attempting to swim, but might be struggling to swim more than 50 meters at a time, which I get quite a few people who, you know, who contact me, who are struggling to get past that 50. So I thought, oh, I sort of need something there to be able to help them, help them do it. So it’s, yeah, but I completely agree. Like it’s, I have had a lot of people who have learned basically just, they sometimes learned to swim as a kid or just learned to survive as a kid. And then they’ll take up swimming for triathlon or for fitness. And they will, yeah, and they’ve, they’ve figured it out through just going to the pool, watching some videos. And it’s, it’s

amazing if they, if they do that through, through the internet, as you said, so I think it’s, yeah, but if you can get some in-person instruction, it can certainly help if you are learning. But there’s just not much around. I don’t know about what it’s like over there, but in terms of adults learn to swim, very few places offer that. I just, yeah, it’s pretty rare. Oh, totally. And I do agree with that over here. There’s a, there’s a local coach in town that’s very much in like the master’s sector. And he actually does a really good job, but comparatively to, you know, I was in Florida, I lived in Nashville, Tennessee. I was also out in Colorado.

It is a dime a dozen to find someone who’s really in that specific field and likes it. Because I do think, you know, it’s hard to coach age groupers for an array of reasons. It’s also hard to coach adults for an array of reasons. So like it’s just a certain personality type that fits in there, you know, that enjoys it and wants to get after it because there’s, there’s a lot of opportunity there too. So I, I’ve always enjoyed working with adults. As you said, kind of in the intro, I don’t specifically just work with them. But it is, it’s a different animal than dealing with like a 12 year old.

And with the, the body line and finding the balance, is there, like I had a swim and contact me last week it was, and she was having trouble with her breathing about a month ago. And she listened to one of the podcasts we did. It was with the someone who does some some breath work and that kind of thing. And she sent me an email. She said, I realized that most of the issue, the big issue that I had with my breathing was actually was just mental. I was, I think she was in that, it’s like that fight or flight mode and was just sort of panicked and a bit fearful in the water. And when she realized that for her it was mostly mental that she was able to relax and then, and, and then be a lot more comfortable in the water. So is there, is there any sort of common common things you will see with with the adults that you work with who are in that more early phase of their learning? Yeah, definitely. I think one of the biggest things kind of like

with what you’re describing is people will hold their breath. Usually they get in and they’re nervous and then they’re going to hold their breath, which, you know, is good because as you’re holding your breath, you’re using oxygen, but creating carbon dioxide. And so it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter what gas is in your lungs, like it’s going to make you more buoyant. But eventually over time, that’s going to become too much and you’re going to start panicking, you know, looking for that next breath of air. So the heart rate spikes. And so in order to get that like calming kind of, you know, Zen meditative, like, you know, when you’re just cruising, you’re like, Oh man, swimming is like, I’m just having a great day swimming like that kind of feel you don’t want to be in a panic mode. You want to be relaxed. And I didn’t really realize how much I liked working hard and how the working hard correlated to my heart rate and like hard breathing and then the

flow of the breathing because when I was swimming, you know, I was focused on pace and making these sets or pushing myself to a different way. But now that I’ve, you know, I still train, but I train in with CrossFit and some other things that it’s like some of the best times I’ve had pushing myself, I feel like we’re in the pool and my heart rate was like so high. But I was breathing so well that like I was able to get through something that I don’t think I could get through. If I wasn’t like a fish efficiently breathing and cycling out on that lactic acid and CO2.

Yeah, there’s something something to being at that fitness level where you can go through a session and you can sustain a quite a high intensity, but stay very relaxed and controlled with your breathing like it’s if you’re not fit with your swimming, you know, if you spend a few weeks out and it’s you know, it’s just not going to happen for you like muscular. That’s going to go first. But when you are at that fitness level, it’s like it is a it is a great feeling. And I I yeah, like I was I bought it when I was concept two rollers recently. I don’t know if you’ve seen those before. But yeah, so I because I hurt my knee early January, so I couldn’t run. And then I got got COVID. So I was out for a few weeks. I couldn’t push myself. And I was just like, I need some form of exercise where aerobically I can actually do some sort of work. And so I wrote in the past and and that was such a good like such a good workout that was fairly similar

to swim because again, you’ve got to control your breathing. I could just put the headphones in and just go for half an hour and still get that same satisfaction of having an aerobically demanding workout rather than just doing maybe some some weights here and there. So it’s yeah, for me that’s like if I can get that every day, if I can get that sort of intensity, then I’m I’m going to be a good person. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I like sometimes I’m like at CrossFit like today, this morning, we had a seven minute little AMRAP. So you’re supposed to go through all these exercises as many times as you could in seven minutes. And I remember when I first started CrossFit, I was like, seven minutes like, is that even really like considered a workout? But I mean, it is, it’s just like a completely different style of stimulus compared to like doubles and weights and like the swimming grind because the swimming grind is like, I mean, it’s just a

whole another level of ball game. It’s wild.

Yeah, that if you think of like even like a 90 minute workout where the main set might be might be 40 to 60 minutes with depending on type of workout with with a bit of rest in between like that’s a long workout is a really long workout like 15 minutes hard on the row and you’re probably done. And so to be able to do that for that long of a time, it’s no wonder you know, swimmers are so fit and that can cross over to to aerobically for their running, maybe their riding and those sorts of things as well. Yeah, totally. Do you work with a lot of triathletes as well? Like, how would you say the master’s and triathletes split is for you?

Yeah, I did a survey on YouTube. I think it was well, it was like 60% I think we’re triathletes. So I’d say, yeah, a fair majority of triathletes that I work with and I probably get about that sort of 60 40 split at at the clinics that we do. So and I find with the with the triathletes in particular, like the fitness wise, they’re all very, very fit. And so it’s it comes down to refining their stroke, getting them to perhaps relax a bit more and not try and force it. And I was talking to and who was I talking to? I was talking to a podcast guest earlier today who’s going to be coming on later to talk about sort of mental training. And he was he was talking about Lionel Sanders and his stop sucking at swimming series and how when Lionel first started with this series, he like, he would be fighting the water, he’d be trying his hardest to be muscling it. And then when he eventually just worked out how to to to relax and and

do that. It’s that’s when he started to turn around. And like for us as coaches, it’s like, well, it’s no surprise, but it’s just such a different approach to the running and the writing I find. Yeah. Yeah, no totally. And you may try athletes that talk about the training were like, I’ve done a half Ironman. But and I’ve always said I wanted to do a full. So at some point in my life, I, you know, I want to commit to all the training that is required to to do that well. But man, yeah, that is that is an animal that full Ironman training that is it’s a lot. Yeah, it’s a huge amount, a huge commitment. I’ve done one in I was a while ago, six, I think six years ago was when I did it. And I love the training for it. Like the right the race was great. But I love the training. I loved how fit I was. I think I was down to like I was I think I was 78 kilos at my fittest. And like now I’m about 84, 85 and I’m reasonably fit. But I was like, oh my God, it’s

like, yeah, it’s been a long time since I’ve been down at that weight and and that fit. So it’s yeah, it’s a good like I get the addiction. I understand the addiction for for that sport and that kind of training because yeah, you just feel like such a such a beast aerobically that, you know, there’s not much that can really tie you out when you’re doing that kind of work and perhaps 12 to 15 hours of training when you’re training for a full Ironman. So it’s 15 hours a week. Oh man, yeah. Now I I started training. I actually wanted to do the one that’s in my hometown and then COVID hit. So they canceled it and then actually Ironman, I guess was like, well, I don’t think we want to bring it back to Lowell. So I was like, oh, well, I started training for like three weeks. And then I was like, I guess I’m not doing this Ironman. So eventually I want to find one and do it. I just I was so happy when I crossed the finish line for my half Ironman

because I had just recently retired. So I wouldn’t say that I was the smartest with training, especially with like the running part of it. Because I don’t really have much of a running background. Like I played basketball and soccer and some other things. But yeah, after I finished what was the longest run I’ve ever done at the end of that half Ironman, I was like, oh, my gosh, never again was my immediate response. And then you get that high of like, wow, I just did something, a barrier I never thought I could push pass and do. And so I was like, I’m signing up for a full Ironman, like right now when it was like, calm down, literally calm down. It’s okay. Yeah, the first thing I said to my wife when I crossed the line after the full was never let me do that again. Because I knew I’d get I like I just that was how hard it was at the time. And I just wanted her to make sure that she never let me into another one again because I because I would

forget about it. It’s probably like having a baby. You just forget the pain. So um, yeah, very, very difficult. But um, yeah, I think once my kids are a bit older, I’ll probably probably get back into it. I think because it’s, yeah, it’s just it’s just it’s fun. And like even though it’s like 12 to 15 hours a week, and I probably do about probably like five hours a week of training at the moment, just in a bit of swimming and rowing and running. I think like you just make the time you fit it in no matter how busy you are. And there’s people who are working a lot longer than I am. And then they’re still able to fit it in. So it’s I like it. I think I liked being that that productive and that that busy and getting it at all done because you just you just make it work. And yeah, I’m sort of I think I’m ready for something something again to to train hard for have a have a big goal in mind because it’s I mean for most people it’s been probably

two years where they haven’t really had that. And for me, it’s been probably like probably four years since since a big big event. So I think I’m ready for something. Yeah. Yeah. No, I totally get that. I think when I have something more on my mind, it’s like I enjoy fitness and joy being active. And I think swimming is a great sport because it’s a lifelong sport. You can, you know, do it until you’re either they have 100 and over age group or master swimming. So it’s that’s enticing. But at the same time. Yeah, I it’s better when I’m like, I’m going to this meet or I’m doing this for my own internal motivation to be on point.

One of the I think the best ways to get that motivation is to just just compete like on the on the weekend I raced it just a competition just in the pool did 200, 400 free in a couple of fifties and been a long time since I’ve done some of those events and a long time since I’ve sort of raced them well. And I like saw my times and I was just like, geez, that is that was pathetic. That was like I could be a lot faster than that. But like straight away the next session after after racing, I’m just like a bit more I’m more motivated. I sort of I realized where I could find improvement in in those events. And so to me, I’m thinking I’m just thinking I should probably just race a little bit more like I like I was. And then that sort of motivation will will come as well, because like I I don’t like not being good at something that I would traditionally be good at. And it sort of hurts the ego a little bit. And I think over the over the last

probably 10 years, I don’t care about my results as much as I certainly did when I was a teenager and competing at a much higher level. But I think deep down there’s something there I still do care about those results at least a little bit. And so, yeah, I think it’s it’s good to have that that fire and and not let that die down or die out. You know, it’s yeah, there’s still that competitive fire there. I just need to wake it up a bit more. Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. I totally agree.

And with the so with the kids that you’re coaching, you mentioned that they were sort of six to 11 and then I think like 11 to sort of 14. So what are some of those like really what are some of those fundamental skills that you’d like those from us to to develop early on and that you see that translating down the track as they get older. So and I know we’re talking about kids here, but I mean there’s a crossover to people who are learning how to swim as adults as well, because as you mentioned, yeah, it’s the same thing. It’s still swimming and and sometimes the adults don’t get taught these more more fundamental things. So you talked about body line. What’s the next thing? Yeah, I think, you know, for pool swimming, kind of shaping up on, you know, starts and turns is important. Like you’re you’re really learning like the technique of proper swimming. But when you’re going through, you know, an age group program, the body is also changing quite

substantially. So it’s kind of like, I’ll say it as some of my swimmers, it’s like we put you on a path and we want to try to keep you on this path and things are going to happen that are going to like nudge you away. Like maybe you have like a crazy growth spurt or if you’re a female, you’ll go through puberty and that’s going to change how you swim. And so the goal is to still try to get you to swim as efficiently as possible for you. But it’s like kind of learning how to work with all these body changes as they’re flowing through an age group program. So by the time that they’re, you know, for females will be more like in high school, growing into their body, which will be their body for a long time. And then guys completely different, like they’ll have, you know, a boy in high school that weighs maybe like 160 pounds and then he’ll go off to college and start strength training and come back at like 185. So it’s just like how well

can we direct this path so that way you can be that kid in college. You know, you have the ability to swim for that long because you’ve got a great base and you know what you need to do. And then it’s just a matter of learning how to execute that,

you know, like no matter what age you are. So I feel like I spent a lot of time on those smaller details, making sure that like the transitions are great, making sure the start looks good, like learning how to jump and take that general athlete athleticism and transfer it into the pool. So kids that are swimmers are not feeling like they’re just like swimmers and baby giraffes running around. They’re actually athletes. And yeah, it’s a challenge for sure. I feel like that’s changed a lot since when I was since when I was now swimming as a junior, whereas you like you look at the likes of Caleb Dressel and I mean anyone who’s sort of competing at the Olympics is there athletically. They are very, very good. And you see it with with Caleb Dressel where his starts and his turns are above anyone else at the moment. And yes, that athleticism and ability to get to to move out of the water and that explosiveness through through the jumping

motions and others where it’s like it’s it’s incredible. And and you see, you do see it now where there are swimmers who are perhaps not specializing as swimmers in eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen years of age, they might be doing a lot of other sports and then they’ll start to specialize in their later teen years. And for the most part, that works really well because then they get those those other skills and that they learn how to move their body and that body awareness. And that helps a lot down the track. And if they stick with the sport, you know, that your peaks not until like early twenties for females, late twenties for males in swimming. And if you stick around, you can generally do do pretty well. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely do feel like, you know, stuff that I’ve been kind of thinking about recently with our kids is like, what age do you start instilling? Like, how do you descend properly? You know, because like you

have all these terms that you and I could say and it’s like, oh, descending means you get faster. But it’s like teaching someone how to descend and then also understanding like the speed levels they have in them, you know, like is level 10 really level 10 or is your level 10 like your level seven? And like when you’re dealing with younger swimmers, you know, nine, 10 year olds will get out of a race and be like, I didn’t go best time. They’re, you know, they’re not even breathing hard. And so it’s like they don’t necessarily understand like where their ceiling truly is. And so that educational piece, I definitely could see that transfer over with adults as well, like knowing maybe adults are a little bit more mental, you know, about why I think my ceilings here, so therefore it should be, but it’s like, well, now you’re showing me that your ability level is a lot higher than the output you just did. So it’s like, how do we get

your brain to give you that moment to shine, you know, more with an adult and then for a swimmer, maybe a younger swimmer, it’s like the educational piece of like you have a lot more to give than you really understand like you should be exhausted when you get out of the pool. And if you’re talking to me immediately, you’re most likely not exhausted. Yeah, it’s exactly, exactly right. And do you have you got some thoughts around how to how to teach that in your swimmers? Yeah, so like with our highest level age group right now, we were really struggling with our kids not to just descend but not go like slow, slow, slow, fast, like descending one through four. So it was like, all right, so how do we translate this to them? So it’s like 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% didn’t work either. And so then we started putting like forcing it by intervals, which you can do and that works to an extent. But like, what if you don’t want to tighten the interval?

Like, what if you want to give, you know, the rest? So what’s worked with this group, which may not be what works for everybody is we just did numbers like one through five. And so it’s kind of like, you know, RPE and such just like, OK, number one is slow. Cool, they get it. Number two is like a little bit faster than slow. And like number three should be hard and then four is fast and then five is all out. So it’s helped take away that like one, one, one, five situation that was happening with the sending and make it like two, three, four, five or one, two, three, four. So yeah, it was kind of it felt like we went backwards to go forwards, but it worked. So that’s all we were really pleased with. Yeah, it’s it’s such an important skill to be able to yeah, push yourself first of all. And I think like we we tend to get a bit we tend to get a little bit lazier or a bit a bit softer when we when we get older traditionally, like it’s

and maybe I’m speaking from personal experience. Like I find it’s probably more of a and an effort to really like I would rarely max out like I did when I was a teenager. And maybe maybe that’s just your capacity as a teenager to do that. And I guess I was doing more. But yeah, but when you when you do and when you find that that level of intensity where you just like, oh my God, that was like, I’m really, I’m really pleased with myself that I actually went there. And you know, I’m completely exhausted. Like it’s a good it’s a good feeling. And yeah, I think a well-designed set and it explained well can can do that. And I think it’s some of the we used to do some sets in in our how we camps over in Thailand where we would get them to like this one we would always do was was eight fifties. Let’s see dive max effort walk backs. And we’d have we’d have some swimmers you could they’d like basically save themselves. They might be hitting 40

for the first six or seven. And the last one would be like a thirty three. And it’s like, well, hang on a minute. Like you would definitely not going max in those earlier ones. And then you’d have the swimmers who they might have started at like a thirty one and then holding it, holding it. And then they’ve blown up and they’ve blown out to maybe a thirty three towards towards the end. It’s like, yes, that’s like that. You’ve done the set, the set really well. So that’s that’s one I think that can expose whether or not they’re they’re saving themselves. And yeah, you can say with by putting that effort or not. Yeah, yeah, no, no, definitely. And it’s it is such a good feeling when you know that you’ve just done something and you’re just like that complete exhaustion. Like, I don’t know, just realizing I think swimming any sport I think can teach you a lot about life. But then swimming, you know, specifically in this instance,

like teaches you about like, OK, you have this ability to withstand some really hard things. And like those things are bigger than even what you understand, you know, like it’s just it’s it does break down a lot of like mental barriers, I think, for the person training.

And thinking of your your coaching like over the next five years, 10 years, what is it that you that you almost looking forwards to? What is it that you would like to get out of people as a coach? Because I know like you do from what I can see, like you do quite a lot. You’re doing the squad coaching. You’re doing all of the clinics and stuff like that with swim like a fish. So there’s a lot that you’re doing within the sport. What is it that, you know, you’d really like to.

Yeah, be doing and most excited about for the next sort of five, ten years. Can you see where that’s going? Yeah, yeah, I feel like so as much as I love coaching,

you know, like I love the club team and stuff that I have here. I really enjoy like the educational space for coaches and swimmers. And so like I will always still coach, you know, run clinics and camps and all that stuff. But I really enjoy kind of like getting into the weeds and like writing a really good blog or dissecting someone’s training philosophy, like kind of trying to pull it out of them. So that way you can share it with others. And so like my biggest goal is to help keep the swimming world continuing to elevate. Like what I want to do is just to keep helping swimmers get faster. And so this just keeps helping the sport get faster. And so but the way that I have most enjoyed doing that is through being kind of like an educational resource. And so I think as we’re moving forward, I want to keep building on that component of our business. And then at the same time, dive more into like the analytics

behind certain things, because a lot of coaches are really good with numbers, you know, splits, tempos, stroke rates, stroke counts, all that stuff. You know, great coaches can pretty much regurgitate. And so it’s like, well, how do you take the trends then to prove that sport is progressing or this person is progressing to help people coach better? So that way their swimmers get faster. Because I find a lot of enjoyment not necessarily being like the coach is like, hey, I created that kid. It’s more of like, hey, I was a part of that kid’s journey.

And yeah, so that’s my goal. And then through the avenues that we do that would be

different partnerships, maybe working with some different countries under some different NGBs, like helping just expand that knowledge base for areas like the US is so dominant, but really not that much anymore. Like y’all are at our heels, like, you know, we need to keep evolving because everybody else’s.

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. It’s I’ve really got enjoyment from having when I sort of sat down and thought about and written about, like, I guess my thoughts on different parts of the stroke or technique and just like when I feel like I’ve been able to come up with an original thought or concept and a way to perhaps coach something that I might have struggled to get someone to do or to implement into their their training or their stroke. I like coming up with ideas and trying to evolve

the way that I coach and then perhaps a different ways for swimmers to improve. That’s that’s what I’ve really enjoyed. And then I like the creative part of like making a video for YouTube or Instagram, doing a podcast like this. Like it’s yeah, I really enjoy that that creative side of it, maybe similar to what you were were talking about there. And it’s yeah. And you can you can really impact a lot more people that way as well when it’s through something like like this or through video or a blog. And like and I don’t want to not be coaching because it’s that that face to face that we were talking about earlier. It’s the face to face that really I get a big kick out of that. I I enjoy it and you can really have a big impact when you do have that face to face contact with people. But it’s also yeah, the time to just sit and think and yeah, come up with new ideas, I think is is important. And yeah, and when I feel like I haven’t done that for a while,

it’s like there’s something in the back of my mind that says like just really like make it fresh, do something new and you have to sit down and have a think about what you’re doing and where you can improve what it is because what it is you’re doing. Because yeah, there’s something in the back of my mind that sort of gnaws at me when I haven’t done that for a while. Yeah, I completely get it. And like the swimming, you know, coaching grind is so intense. And it’s like, you know, we’re in the kind of the heat of the season right now where we’re getting ready for a championship meets. We have a last chance meet this weekend. Like, you know, everything feels like very

at a higher intensity than what it is normally. So like if I don’t take space or have space like in my schedule to have a few hours where I can like sit in front of my computer and allow that creativity to come out. It’s really hard for me because I’m always like, oh, I’m on a time cruncher. I got to be at the pool at two o’clock or I’m going up to the staff meeting here. Like I got to go on the phone call with this person that it like limits my ability, or at least it feels like to be creative. So like, I’ve been really enjoying weekends where I’ve been in town. In Sundays, I don’t have any lessons because I’ll, you know, I’ll think of something or maybe I have thought of something and I’ve written it down and I’m like, all right, let’s expand upon that. Like, what do you actually think about this and how do you think it would help and what’s the easiest way to convey it and just allows that creative process to flow and, you know, it’s interesting

because it’s like, I think it’s a part of most jobs, but at the same time, like, you know, your job, no matter what it is, has a lot of, you know, actionable deliverables. And sometimes you don’t necessarily get to be creative on how you deliver those. But in a space like you and I are sitting in, like, it’s fun to find a YouTube video or make one that’s like, dang, that underwater video looks so cool right now. Like you’re geeking out about your own video, you know, before you even put it up. And a lot of times it’s actually what I do. I’m like, oh, it’s so sick. Like, I’m like, I’m so excited for people to see it. And then some people might be like, that’s so cool, too. And then other people are like, no. And I was like, well, whatever, I still think it’s cool. You know, like it’s just my love of swimming totally comes out.

Yeah, totally. So it’s, I think that’s a good place to end it there. So Abby, I want to thanks for, thank you for being on the podcast. And for those listening, where’s the best place to find you to see those videos that you’re making and in the blog post that you’re talking about? Yeah, yeah. So if anybody I’m never connected with, I’d love to connect with you. We’ve got a great website. It’s just it’s swim like a fish dot org. And then probably the best social outlet for us is my Instagram page. So my username is at and then T H E a fish just as my name. And then the number one. And you do some you do some great videos of, yeah, I really enjoyed the the way that you shoot them. And then, obviously, the the lessons behind it as well, the teaching that you’re doing. So, yeah, I think that’s that’s great. And so if you are listening, yeah, go and check out Abby’s Instagram there. It’s it’s really good. So and we’ll put that in our show notes as well, so people can find it.

So Abby, thanks again for being on the podcast. And I’d love to have your back on again soon, too. Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. Thanks for listening to the Effortless Swimming podcast. If you’d like us to help you become a faster, more efficient swimmer, go to www.effortlesswimming.com.