Welcome to the Effortless Swimming podcast to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming podcast. My guest today is Josh Sallie. You’re based in Wales, Josh. And we’ve worked together for the last couple of months doing some stroke analysis and technique coaching. And you’ve recently completed your first half Iron Man and had a remarkable swim for how long you’ve been swimming for, which is less than a year. So I wanted to talk to you today on the podcast and just ask a couple of questions about how you’ve managed to do a 30 minute half Iron Man swim. And you’ve really been swimming since about February because I think a lot of people will be able to take away a lot from that. So welcome to the podcast, Josh. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Tell me about how it all started. What got you into triathlons and what

made you decide to take the leap into swimming as well because you couldn’t swim much more than 25 meters when you first started? No. I think pretty common when people start triathlon is the difficult aspect is the swim for loads of different reasons. But mainly obviously technique, fitness. I decided to do triathlon. I was doing other sports at the time. Wasn’t really getting a kick out of them. And I had a few friends who were doing triathlon who I kind of watched from afar and watching on Instagram and things like that. And yeah, just really liked what they were doing. It looked like a tough sport. Enjoy running, enjoy cycling. I swam as a kid, just normal lessons with a teacher just so you can stay safe. But yeah, the actual thought of swimming those sorts of distances were just crazy for me to think. So yeah, I jumped in the pool. I knew the distance for the half was 1,900 meters. And I thought, well, I’m just going

to have a go at swimming 1,900 meters. Just see what happens. And I did do it. I covered it. I think it took me like two hours, but I did do it. I think it was like one hour, like 56 or something like that to be precise. It’s on my old Apple watch somewhere. And I was like, well, where’s the case? I had actually do the distance. So I thought, that’s fine. I’ll give a triathlon a go. Yeah, from there, jumped on YouTube. As I bet a lot of people do. You’re the big name on YouTube. Like your videos helped me immensely. And I’m sure 99.9% of people star there. So yeah, it was going through the videos. I can’t say I was any more confident of the do it. It did take time getting in the pool. And yeah, it just kind of took off from there, really. You must have improved fairly quickly because before you contacted me, you did an Olympic distance race. And I think your pace was a 145 from memory. So it’s like a pretty decent pace,

especially since it started swimming in February. So what was that progression like for you? Obviously your swim fitness improved a lot. Do you feel like mechanically or technically you got better as well in those first couple of months? Yeah, definitely. So in the beginning, I was focusing mainly on fitness, going more for distance because obviously in my head, I was just like, right, I need to cover this distance. The time to my race was fast approaching. I thought, you know, I really do need to be confident in covering this distance no matter what the time is. So that was my mindset. Like in hindsight, it probably wasn’t the best mindset to have. So I started focusing more on technique.

I did manage to get somebody to film me a couple of times. It was a bit difficult at the time because I didn’t really have the flexibility of filming all the time with people around me. So I took advantage of it where I could. So when I started watching the videos back, that’s when I saw, right, you know, I’m doing the distance but I can see why I’m not really doing it as good as I could be or as efficiently as I could be. So that’s when I started focusing on technique. And to be honest, I had the race planned and when the date was set, I was probably in the pool sometimes five days a week just making sure I can get the technique dialed. So I invested in, you know, snorkel, fins, like all simple stuff, like pull buoy and just kind of broke the stroke down. And, you know, that first swim was also my first open water swim. So it was in a lake and that was scary to say the least. Like I’ve come from a background of,

it’s like a runny joke in my family where like me and my younger brother, we’ve always been scared of water, open water. And what were you if he’s the classic one sharks, like sharks, sharks, it went in the lake.

So yeah, just what’s in there, the unknown, but to be honest, the more, I never thought I’d say this but the more you do open water swimming, the more you get the wetsuit on, the more you feel comfortable in that environment. It just, your fear just kind of goes away and take it from me who, you know, I had a really deep fear of open water. And the first time I swam at it, like it does help being around other people but more often than not, you can’t really see what’s in front of you anyway in there, which kind of helps but the more you practice it, the more you get used to it. I actually prefer it to the pool to be quite honest. If someone says, you know, do you want to jump in? Do you want to go to the sea and go for a swim? I’d be like, yeah, sure, go for a swim. So you’ve turned it from a fear where you’re probably dreading getting in the water to now looking forward to getting into the open water. What’s the mindset now when you do go to the open water?

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We’ll go there, we’ll pay a fee and we’ll jump in. And it’s all kind of martial where you went to. So I really took advantage of that. So I was open water swimming twice a week in season all the way up to my races. And I just got more comfortable like that. But yeah, don’t get me wrong. Like I’m not saying I jump in there on my own for like an hour and be totally comfortable. Like if someone touches your leg, I think we’ve all got that kind of twitch where you go. But just getting in the mindset where you treat it like a training session, you turn, you’re ready to go. Look at it as a training session and just say, right, I’m going to swim for an hour. Well, this is what I did anyway. I’ll just say, right, I’d swim for an hour, turn the watch on, swim, jump out, see what I did. And that’s what I was doing twice a week. It was more of like an endurance swim, getting used to the water, practicing, sighting, being around other people.

That’s important for me anyway. Especially during my first swim, because my first open water swim was my first race. And yeah, being like shoulder to shoulder with someone, you guess someone who might give you a little pull or something like that. You need to get used to that and seeing gaps and going for gaps or knowing when to hand back or getting on someone’s feet is all something you literally can practice it and you can learn it. There’s quite a few takeaways from that is you put the work in at the start to be swimming consistently. And if you’re swimming five times a week, like that’s you’re going to get results that way compared to someone who’s swimming maybe once or twice. It really fast tracks the progress. And you also get start to develop that feel for the water and you begin to get that fitness and strength that’s required as well. And then being able to practice in the open water with the sighting been comfortable with others around you.

Like all those things just make such a difference. And to just throw yourself in the mix and getting there and do it is, I would think large part of why you’ve had a good amount of success in such a short period of time like you just got in there and did it. When we started working together, there was one of the main things initially was you’re quite wide with your catch like your arms, your hands are going out quite wide through there. Working on the bringing them in a little bit. Is that something that you were aware of before starting? And is it something that you had thought much about? I would say that is the main thing that you pinpointed straight away and has made the biggest difference to my stroke was when it’s what I was doing. I was hanging out at the front and kind of sweeping out. Wasn’t I like sweeping out and coming in like I’ve got the videos on my phone. And then you gave me the YMCA drill and the doggy scoop drill and doing that.

And I think once I had that, take it going from that to like that is when I really developed my feel for the war. I understood what people meant with feel for the war because I was getting a hold of the war instead of coming out and trying to muscle my way through like I had no lactic acid in my shoulders anymore. Yeah, it just completely transformed my stroke. When you do go out wide like you were doing, it tends to be more through front of the shoulders rather than being through the lats and more through the back because just because the position of the hand there. So that was a, you know, it’s just, it makes such a difference once you get it because you can cover, you know, you can get another 10, 20, even up to like 30% more distance per stroke when you follow the right path with the hand. And so that’s like, you did a really good job to change that. And I think occasionally, and maybe you sent a video like two times later

and yeah, occasionally it was drifting out a bit but it often happens when you’re making changes like some strokes, you’ll get it. Some strokes would be like how they were before but the more you practice it, the more consistent you get with those better strokes. So it’s like, it’s so much better. Same with the rotation. Initially you were rotating a lot going, I can’t remember how much you were rotating to but I think it was maybe 60 or 70 degrees through the hips and shoulders. Like you’re doing more than what was required. And I think that was partly causing over, so the wide catch and pull as well. And so this is something that we focused on a bit is just rotating to 30 to 40 degrees and just dialing that down a little bit. How’s that change been for you? Was it something that you can gauge easily or you’re not sure when you’re doing the right amount of rotation? I see the rotation for me is, it’s been the hardest thing for me to try and fix.

And that’s when, that’s where the video has come in really handy because you feel like you’re doing something but you watch it back on video and you’re doing the complete opposite. Like that’s one thing I’ve learned with swimming is the most bizarre thing is that aspect. So the rotation is still something I need to fix and yes, it’s still something I’m working on but I think if I kind of break it down I’m finding using a pull buoy is helping just to eliminate, just to isolate the shoulders or my hips just to see where it stems from really. And I think it could also be balanced somewhere because it kind of throws the stroke off but then using the tools has helped me realize that because say I have fins on, I have a pull buoy on, then the rotation seems great from what I can see. So I think that’s when tools are important but yeah, most of my swim and I’m trying to not use tools unless it’s for a specific reason.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. The other thing that that was kind of leading to was a lower stroke rate than what would be ideal for you going forwards. And so I think it’s good to look at there, what’s the cause of these things happening, not the symptom. And if we look at, well, okay, stroke rates are a little bit too slow here while it’s probably for that over rotation because it just takes too much time to get back from one side to the other. So that looks like it’s coming up nicely. And then the other, I think factor there is with the kick and this is what we’re working a bit on now is just keeping the kick narrower and just tightening that up because when I, I did some filming with Kia Melvaton a couple of weeks ago who’s Australian Olympian and she, when I was watching her as I was filming her at her really comfortable pace, she’s like 112, 113 per 100. Her kick was like, it was tight. Yeah, but I mean, she swam since she was tiny

and has, you know, she’s got been swimming eight, nine times a week for many years. And when she was swimming easy, her kick was very narrow, very small, just very relaxed out the back. And then she brought it in a little bit more. The kick got a little bit bigger as she picked up the pace down towards like 102, 103 which is more her like 400 to sort of 800 pace. And, but the kick was still very narrow. And it’s something that I’m working with quite a few swimmers on is just have the kick be effective where it’s not slowing you down. And then when it’s in that tighter zone where it’s more behind your body line, it can really keep things more balanced and stable. And I think that’s probably got a little bit to do with that over rotation as well. Yeah, yeah, definitely. It’s funny because when I’m swimming, I can always, if I glance across to the other lanes I can always recognize a good swimmer or like the levels that people are at based on that kick

because you see someone who’s a really good swimmer. And I’m not really looking like they’re catching pull. I’m just looking at the kick and their kick is just miles better than everyone else. It’s like you can tell that they’re a really good swimmer. So that’s something I really wanna fix and something I’m working on. Yeah, but I find that when the kick is working in time with the rest of my body, I’m obviously so much faster. And I just feel like my body position is higher and everything just becomes more effortless. Whereas if the kick’s wrong or I’ve missed time in it or I’m kicking too much, then you can literally feel it putting the brakes on for me anyway. So yeah, and I’ve experimented. I’m sure the people have maybe done this because there’s thousands of videos I think on YouTube about kick, what’s best? Like two beat, four beat, six beat. And I’ve tried all sorts of different kicks and I think that’s a really important one to train

and like even me now, like I’m still not 100% on where my kick should be or could be. So it’s my main focus for the moment. It ties so much into the stroke and when it’s great, it really does amplify the rest of your stroke, I feel. I think most people should start with a six beat kick and then work it down from there. So if you’ve got just an easy and consistent six beat kick, then you can start to bring it down to a four beat if you want or a two beat from there. Often with a wetsuit, people will just resort to a two beat kick because you’re sitting so high in the water. But I think it’s great to start with that six beat kick and what’s worked really well for me, just having my kick be well timed with the stroke in a session is just doing at least a little, a couple of 25s or some 50s of pure kick as part of the warmup. So kicking on the side, sometimes the front and back and when you’re kicking side on, you’ve got even pressure in the up and down kick.

Whereas if you’re kicking just on your front, you’ve got more on the down and a little bit less on the up because you’re obviously kicking up towards the surface of the water, there’s a little bit less pressure there. So I think it’s good to be able to warm up the legs and get the kick going by doing a bit more side kick as part of the warmup. And what I’ve recommended to a lot of people is doing four 25s, fast kick, doing 25 on your front, 25 on your left, then 25 on your back, 25 on your right. So you’re working all those different directions and that tends to warm you up pretty well with the kick. And I find personally, for me, that makes a big difference. In the feedback I’ve got from people who have gone through week, what is it? Week seven of the eight week faster freestyle course which is about the kick timing and connection there. So connecting your catch and your down kick, getting that to go together.

It’s one of the most frustrating modules because it’s like, until you get it, it’s like, man, this is annoying. I can’t seem to get it. It feels awkward and I’m not swimming well. But then as soon as I get it, things click and it’s like, wow, okay, this feels so easy and I’m hitting these times without really needing to try for it. So as you mentioned, it’s one of those things that when you’ve got it, you know you’ve got it and your times reflect that because then everything’s working together and it takes a lot of the pressure off the shoulders and the arms because you’ve got that that synchronicity in the strike from the front end to the back end there. Yeah, definitely. And one way I found to feel it is if you put fins on and just do a really light kick with fins and then see how the catch and pull feels and it feels like, well, effortless. Like it is so easy. And it’s just because I imagine everything’s synchronized properly, you know,

like your body position is higher and that’s what I would, that’s my goal. That’s what I wanna get to for sure. Well, I mean, and I think I said in the last video for you that you’ve got a really nice stroke like your catch and your pull is looking really quite good. And so it’s just tightening the screws on a few different things. So it’s all working together, maybe then increasing the stroke rate a little bit after that. And that’s where I see you’re going sub 130 pace in your races consistently because you’ve got a lot of those things actually dialed in. So it’s exciting for me to work with someone like yourself who you’ve gotten to where you are just on your own with the determination and the work that you’ve done and then being able to work with you and help tighten those screws and look at where those opportunities are to continue to bring it down. I’m really looking forward to seeing how far we can push that.

So yeah, I think it’s exciting looking at what the next six, 12 months can contain for you because I think there’s some good opportunities there to really see what’s possible for you sometimes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I gotta say I’ve really enjoyed working with you like sending the videos across and getting the feedback. I’m lucky enough to be able to film myself whenever I want in the pool. So that definitely helps. But an absolute game changer is filming yourself and getting feedback or even filming yourself. What I used to do was film myself and watch your videos or compare it to other people or other videos and just be really honest with where you’re at really. And yeah, it’s just one of those things you just don’t know where you’re at until you can film it or you’ve got a coach on deck to see how you’re doing. But yeah, that’s how you get. No, I was just saying I’m really looking forward to the races to come for next season.

So obviously starting at a different position now as I was before. So yeah, hopefully I can, while I’m sure I can push it on further with your help. Yeah, and for those that are listening, people sometimes wonder, well, how can I record myself? If I’ve got a pool that’s gonna allow me to film, I don’t know how to do it. So what’s your setup for recording? So I use a GoPro and I’ve got one of those suction cup accessory mounts with the Gooseneck. So I’ll stick it on the side. It doesn’t always work, but you just got to be persistent with it. So just get it to stick on the side and then you can just bend the Gooseneck to be like above the war or under the war, different angles. And once that’s stuck, it’s rock solid. So it’s not moving. But just bought one of those tripods I hear. I heard you say on another podcast, you can put it at the bottom of the pool. Yeah, like a gorilla pod type thing. Yeah, so I’ve been wanting to get one

and under the body view of the stroke because I haven’t really done that yet. So I’m looking forward to doing that as well. Yeah, cool. It’s one of those things that, like you don’t need a GoPro. I think GoPro’s, they got the best quality. You can get a second hand one for fairly cheap if you don’t want to get a brand new one. There are some cheaper brands out there that the quality is fine for what most people would use it for. Kaiser Bass is I think another one that’s in the States off Amazon. They’re like 100, 150 bucks for an underwater camera. And then like the tripods or the suction cups, they’re not much, they’re $40, $50. And in terms of like value for what you’ll learn about your swimming, it’s hard to go past it. And I think sometimes there’s a reservation there for from people who like, I’d like to do it, but I really don’t want to know. Like it’s like, I don’t want to know. I don’t want to be like, I don’t feel like

it’s going to be. It’s scary. It’s scary, the first few. I’ve still got videos on my phone. It is crazy once you look back to where you first started, to where you are now. And that’s a good thing of getting the videos is you can just look back at it at any time really. So if you feel like you’re not progressing or you know, you feel like you had a rubbish swim, all you’ve got to do is look back at those old videos and you realize that, you know, you are progressing quite well. And yeah, it can be motivating. But yeah, it’s a powerful tool. I’ve heard elite pros, like some of the best swimmers in triathlon say on video, that they’ve picked up mistakes in their stroke or they thought they were swimming a certain way and then they watched it back and they weren’t. And for me, that just said it all really. I was surprised how little videoing or feedback that a lot of the pro triathletes actually get. And even with a lot of the top swimmers,

the top like half a percent, top 1%, do you have that? Especially if they’re with like one of the top five clubs in say Australia. But then below that, they get very little actual video of their stroke and because they just don’t have that set up and it can be a little bit time consuming for say a coach to do like to film all his athletes and that sort of thing. But yeah, if they can get it, it just makes a huge difference because I have filmed, yeah, I’ve filmed a lot of good swimmers and triathletes and often there’s one or two major things that if they’re able to turn that around in three or four months, they are gonna be a lot faster. And then you’ve got the smaller 1%, 2% things there. So there’s always opportunities and it’s not often I’ve come across anyone where there’s nothing that they could improve. So it’s, yeah, it’s just, it’s such a valuable thing to do. So Josh, I know it’s very early morning there

for you in Wales. So I appreciate you jumping on to the podcast to share how you’ve gotten to where you’re currently at. So I look forward to working with you over the next couple of months and maybe we’ll do an update podcast down the track and see what you can get down to. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And thanks again for having me on. And yeah, I just wanna say, you know, you just help countless of thousands of people, you know, just getting into swimming, triathlon and you are the man on YouTube. And I, you know, you might even surprise yourself how many people you help just make the first step to get into the water and do the swim in the triathlon. It really is valuable information. So yeah, just wanna say thanks for that. No, I appreciate that a lot. And it’s great to connect with someone like yourself who’s been able to do that. Because yeah, I know over COVID I didn’t like, you know, I just missed coaching people face to face.

There’s only so much you can get through doing it online. So it is nice to sort of see real people like yourself. So yeah, I appreciate you trusting me with the coaching and looking forward to the next couple of months. So yeah, thank you and all the best. Thank you. Cheers, Brian. Thanks for listening to the Effortless Swimming Podcast. If you’d like us to help you become a faster, more efficient swimmer, go to www.effortlesswimming.com.