And so I made the decision at that time and said, well, every race that you do from now on, you’re never allowed to think about quitting because it’s just, you know, if you can get through that, you can get through anything. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast. This is episode number 158. My guest today is Melissa Urie and she’s the first female to complete the Uberman triathlon, which is touted as the world’s most challenging ultra triathlon and for very good reason. It’s a 556 mile course that starts on Catalina Island and it finishes at the trailhead of Mount Whitney, which is the highest pink peak in the continental US. So it’s a 34 kilometer swim from Catalina Island across to the mainland where they land at Palos Verde.

Then it’s a 640 kilometer bike ride to the Badwater Basin, which is 200 feet below sea level and competitors then run to the top of Mount Whitney, which is the highest peak in the continental US, which is 13,000 feet. So it ends up being a 217 kilometer run. And this is a task. This is an event that Melissa completed last year. She was the first female to do it. Very few people have done it ever. And we talk a bit about the race. And one of the things I found most interesting about this conversation was some of the ways that she kind of tricks herself into doing the training and getting through the race as well by using some different mental strategies that allow her to enjoy the tough times. And one of the things that I also found interesting here and one of the funny things was when she’s training in the riding into the wind and it’s wet and it’s miserable and she’s going very slow because she’s got a strong headwind.

She thinks of Lieutenant Dan from Forest Gump, where he’s on the the prawn boat and they’re going into the the wind and the rain and he’s on top and he’s yelling out to the world, is this all you’ve got? She visualizes that it makes her laugh. And that’s one of the ways that she uses or finds that she can get through tough training and get through tough races. So we also talk about imposter syndrome, which I think is everyone’s been through before and particularly before doing the urban man event. This was something that kept cropping up, even though she achieved a lot in the ultra endurance world is something that she still felt like she was an imposter. But after doing this race, it’s diminished a bit and she’s found that her body language, the way she thinks about herself, the way that she interacts in the world has changed significantly as a result of it. So it only took her five days of of a race like this to be able to do it.

And there’s a lot of interesting things and she’s not afraid to share the details and actually get into and kind of peel back the layers on on what she’s actually thinking and some of the challenges that she encountered. So let’s get into the conversation with Melissa Yuri. The podcast, the first female to complete the urban man event, which is just insane. I hadn’t heard of it until late last year when I saw your name pop up. How did you first hear about the the event? It’s really interesting. I can’t remember when I first came across it. I know that I travel in a lot of like ultra endurance circles. I’m sure I saw it somewhere on someone’s Facebook came up. Someone had done it. I know the very first guy who did it. I did. I was there when he was doing Ultraman Australia the first year round. So it must have been like something about him completing it. And I looked into it and like, wow, that looks really intense.

And then I just kind of went, OK, put that to one side, not think about that for a while. But yeah, it was definitely on my radar for a couple of years before I did it. And how did your your career start in in triathlon and endurance sport? Like, I know you did your first Ironman 10 years ago. What was it before that? What was your story with sport? So when I was a kid growing up, I would always swim. My mum is a qualified swim teacher from many moons ago. So she was, you know, through us in, you know, swimming. My brother and I for a very long time, we were kids. And then I, you know, played a bit of basketball, played a bit of netball, usual sports through school, didn’t really do much through uni. And then once I’d finished uni and started working, I’m like, OK, time to focus on your house. You know, you’ve kind of haven’t really made that a priority for a while. So I started getting into a bit more bike riding that I used to do

with my dad and my brother. And then I went and saw my friend do a triathlon, one of the corporate triathlons. And I don’t know what they’re called now. They are, they are W’s or whatever they are. And I was like, that, that looks really fun. So I decided that I needed to stop running because I hadn’t run before. And then, yeah, did my first triathlon.

I’m pretty sure it was 2005 that I started. And it was one of those mini distance tries where it was like a two, three hundred meter swim, ten K rides, two, three K run something along those lines down in Mordialli, I remember was the first one. And then I was like, that was really fun. I really want to do that again. So that’s, that’s my start from very, very baby distance races. That’s awesome. I’ve heard so many people mention that that’s how they’ve got into the sport is through the corporate tries. And I think it’s a great way like you get a taste for it. And it’s like, OK, this is actually quite fun. And then it’s a very slippery slope until you’re doing Uberman. Fifteen years later, right? So it’s, uh, and in terms of training, leading up to the event, like how, how long did you give yourself to, to train for it? Like you’re obviously doing a fair bit in the lead up to it. And you had a number of years background in it.

But what was the training block look like? Was it months? Was it years?

And that’s a really hard question to answer because I feel like my training was 10 years worth or five years worth when I started Ultras. But specifically for Uberman, we started training in July. But I train all year round. I have generally around six to eight week break after a really big race. And then after that, then I’m back into training, just doing some kind of, you know, training with my coach. So then what I am what when I spoke first to my coach about this race, I said to her, you know, like, this is what I want to do. And she went, oh, my God, I’ve no idea how to train you for that. And my answer was, it’s like, well, you’ll figure it out.

That’s why I trust you because she’d already trained me for Epic Five, she’d already trained me for Ultraman Hawaii. So I knew that, you know, she knew what kind of base I had. She knew what kind of athlete I am. And I had, you know, a lot of faith in her being able to train me. So the training for this particular race was very, very different to what I normally do. It was the way that she kind of framed it. My coach Kate Bebelakwa was that I wanted she wanted to overload me on one sport a week instead of trying to cram like really, really long of everything in one week. So what we do is we do maybe like five, six swims a week and, you know, have that as the main focus one week. And then the next week I’d have as a bike focus. And there was a lot of, you know, like doing something at night after work and then early morning the next day with the swims. I’d be in the pool maybe like eight, nine o’clock at night

and then getting up at five in the morning back in the pool again because it was about getting that overload of fatigue happenings. And then my body would get used to that and then used to still continuing on even though all you want to do is stay in bed and you can pull exhaustage. And then I did a lot of trail runs, a lot of 50 K runs. And I did 100 K run and the day before all of those runs I’d be out running for, you know, like 10, 15 K’s or something, which is something I’d never do. Like usually do like a half hour shakeout run and that’s it. But instead it was again, let’s run on tired legs and then still get through the event and see how you go. So, yeah, there was always kind of the Uberman was the focus. Everything else was training in between, even though I was still doing races and other things. And is that something that you felt during the event where it really paid off where you’re just so used to being fatigued and overloaded that you’re

just like, yep, this is I’m used to this. My body knows what it’s doing. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, that’s something that I’ve learned over the years as well. I’m very, very good at managing through fatigue and about, yeah, just, you know, continue on pushing through, even though, you know, the last thing you want to do is to keep moving. So I feel like that’s something that I’ve definitely developed over the years, but that type of training really, really helped with Uberman as well. And my main thing about doing a bunch of 50 K runs as well is I wanted to make the distance not an issue when I got to it. You know, when you, you know, your runs 216 Ks long, it’s ridiculous. So it’s like, how can I break that down into actually making sure that, you know, it’s a, it’s a manageable thing. And that’s why I did a hundred K. And then I’m like, well, if I’ve got 50 Ks to go, then it’s not going to

be a big deal, which ended up not really mattering because when I was doing the run, every time I’d stopped to sleep, I would charge my garment so I had some kind of data afterwards. And then I had no idea where actually was in the run course in terms of how far I’d gone because my garment had reset every time. The only time I actually knew how far I’d been is that one of my crew, you know, did a little celebration like we had a few costumes and so he had a unicorn costume on. He jumped down and was like, congratulations. This is a hundred miles. And I was like, ah, I had no idea. And then the last part was up Mount Whitney. And that’s basically a half marathon distance from the town Lone Pine where I had a sleep during the night and then got up in the morning and ran some like, OK, no, I’ve got 21 Ks. And that was the only time I actually knew during the run portion. Except on the bike, I had an idea because I had my garment.

It was was working a bit better. But, you know, it’s a little bit crazy to be honest. It’s got to be great for just taking it one step at a time, though, like not knowing like, oh, that’s 300 kilometres on the bike. It’s like, no, you just you sort of know it’s just like one step at a time until you get to your next like feed or your next stop. Is that something that you had experienced in all the events leading up to that where you just take it, you know, one short, short moment at a time? Yeah, absolutely. I have this thing that I do where when I’m like really, really early on in a race, you know, when I was doing the hundred K, I had done maybe like three, four Ks and I’m like, oh, wow, I have 96 things to go and I’ll just laugh to myself. I’m like, that is ridiculous. Like, what the hell? But then I say to myself, I’m like, but how good is it going to feel when you have three Ks to go? Like, then I just kind of reverse it and go, OK, well, you

know, remember this feeling and remember, you know, that you’re laughing about how ridiculous it is because you will actually have covered all of that distance and then you can do a little celebration because you’ve only got two Ks or whatever to go. And I find I do that in every race, you know, at the start of the swim, I’m like, this is a 34 K swim. That’s insane.

But whatever, we’ll just get out and do it. It’s it’s nuts. And I mean, just to get to start off a race with the Catalina swim. It’s like, yeah, that’s that’s a fair bit. I mean, I think I heard you say your longest distance swum before that was 20 Ks. Is that right? Yeah. Is there any any doubt whether 34 Ks would be a stretch or you’re just comfortable. You knew that you’d done the training and on the event day, you you’d be fine. Yeah. So I I did the 20 K because I wanted to do that event. I wanted to do the Roto swim. But also it was when I was starting to think about doing Uberman and I hadn’t done any swims in open water over 10 Ks. And so I said, OK, well, if I do the 20, I get through that, then I can do 34. Like that was kind of my one plus one equals to mine frame. So when I when I finished the 20, I was like, OK, well, the 34 will be fine then because I would have a wet suit on. I’d have a boat and, you know, a kayak and I’d have a lot,

a lot of support around me. So I just went, OK, well, that’s that’s a done deal. That’s not going to be an issue to get through the distance. So I can’t I have the way of almost need to prove to myself that, yes, I can do it before I do it. And that’s the way that that I did did that part of it. I kind of I relate it to when you’re training for a marathon, you don’t run the marathon distance. You run up to a certain distance, so then you get the confidence that you’re going to do the whole thing. The only big thing that I realised with Catalina kind of retrospectively is because I had come from winter over to America and I had done maybe like half a dozen open water swims before I got out and did the Catalina swim. And the only there was a 10 mile swim over there that my friend who I was staying with is like, oh, I’m going to do this. I’m like, oh, awesome. I jumped in and did that race. And thank God I did that because otherwise, you know, I did

a half half Ironman and that, you know, I would have swam like two K’s and then that was it because I had done no open water swimming in winter through Melbourne because why if you’re going over to, you know, 20 plus degree temperature, it’s not going to be helpful. So I hadn’t had that time in the salt water, but yeah, I was like, oh, I’ll just do what you can. I mean, do you say it was a 10 mile swim? Yes. Yeah. I mean, most people look at that and go, what, you just jumped in and did that. And I look at that and think we just jumped in and did it. But I mean, you had the training behind you, but it’s exactly right. I think you just build that confidence as you as you sort of train up to events and you do them. Like I did run a couple of years ago and same thing, like 16 K’s in a training swim didn’t feel like that much at the time. And so now just sort of mentally, it’s like you’ve sort of leveled up in your mind where you can then just go, that’s

fine, but you’ve got to prove to yourself that you can do it before you can get there. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I also put a lot of faith in my coach because I say it on like, well, you’re keeping my training, you’re doing my program, you know, you know where I’m at, you know what my fitness is like. So you will get me prepared as possible to get to the event physically. I’ll do all the mental work and then we’ll be able to get through it. So that’s yeah, I also just put a lot of a lot of faith in that and it’s it’s paid off. And the thing I like about that too, I mean, she said, you I don’t know how to coach you for that because I mean, it’s such a unique event and such a distance that there’s no, you know, it’s not like a marathon where there’s a million sort of proven plans out there. It’s like, well, I’m guessing she just looked at it and thought, okay, how what are you going to encounter in the race? What are you going to come up to?

And then how can we prepare your body for it? And I think that’s for a coach, it’s probably pretty exciting where they’re looking at it and going, cool, this is uncharted territory. And if we can do this, then that’s going to be a great accomplishment for both of you. Yeah, absolutely. I remember my very first coach who’s like, I actually really like coaching you because you pushed me because, you know, I’ve coached anyone to these distances before. And that’s what my current coach Kate has said as well. She’s like, I love it because, you know, I get to coach all these different things that I’ve never even considered doing myself. Like she’s done Ultraman, which is three days. And she’s looking at, you know, other races and she’s like, no way, no, I’m like, oh, you’ll be fine. She’s like, nope, thank you. But yeah, she gets to experience, you know, what it’s what it’s like for me, which is, which is pretty fun too.

Yeah, vicariously living through, through your, through your crazy, crazy adventures. What, what was your, your swimming like over that, over the buildup, how many Ks a week were you doing at your peak? I honestly have no idea because I don’t look at that. Is it just for time? Swimming? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes it’d be for distance.

Yeah, sorry, all my sense has to be for distance, but I never would look at what my total distance is because to be honest, it doesn’t really matter. Like it doesn’t really mean anything. It’s, you know, it’s a cool number to look at and go, wow, I did this amount of swimming. But, you know, I, it’s sessions that I do. I do one session at a time, you know, whatever, whatever I’m doing. So I have no idea. I’d have to look back through my training, training plans. And I always hate that question. Yeah, that’s a question of like, what’s your TSS? And like, I don’t know, it’s a number that means nothing to me. So yeah, I, I did one 10 K swim because I went over to America months before the race. So I did it when I was over there. And then I did that 10 mile swim. But to be honest, a lot more of my training was focused on the run because, and the bike, because it was about getting to the run as best as you can, as fresh as you can, which is ridiculous

when you’re going for that long. But then so I had enough legs to be able to continue on and get through the run as well. So yeah, there’s a lot more focus elsewhere. And the swim was like, oh, we’ll just get through that. Was there any point in the race where you doubted that you were going to make it or just you knew that it was happening? No, no. I did a race in 2014. I did Ultraman Canada. And I still break that as the hardest mentally race, mentally tough race that I’ve ever done because of what happened during it. I had a lot of, you know, I had a couple of bike crashes leading up to it. I broke in bones. I like, yeah, it was, it was absolutely horrible. I ended up in hospital at the end. And I looked back to that afterwards and I said to myself, I’m like, at no point in time, did you think about quitting? And so I made the decision at that time. I said, well, every race that you do from now on, you’re never allowed to think about quitting

because it’s just, you know, if you can get through that, you can get through anything. So it’s not even something that I entertain ever. It’s the question is always about, how am I going to do it? Not, am I going to do it if I can do it? It’s how do I break this down to be able to get through the distance? Yeah, I love hearing that. And also hearing about, you know, with your training, for example, like with the swimming, you weren’t looking at your weekly Ks at all. So I just take it one session at a time. And there’s so many different ways to go about training for a race or, you know, working for a goal and everyone’s going to be so different. And that’s the one thing I’ve learned as a coach is particularly that for athletes, people are different and they need different things. But also like, you can, there’s no right and wrong. You can make it up. You can do it how you think it’s going to work best. And if you’re trying to follow someone else’s plan

because you think that’s going to be the best one, well, it might not be the best one for you. So it sounds like you’ve been able to just kind of go about it the way that you see best and keeps you mentally strong for the event, which is amazing. Yeah, thank you. And after the race, what was it like? Because I know for me, after a massive, a big event, like for me, there’s always that sort of that downtime where it’s like sort of question, all right, what am I doing? And like you have the high of the race and then you have the low afterwards. Did you have any of that? And what was your physical recovery like as well? So it’s interesting. Like, I feel like this was kind of the races and accumulation over all these years of experience and everything because I didn’t have the low after the race because two years before when I did Epic Five, I didn’t realize at the time, but I’d actually done a lot of mental preparation

for what it was going to be like after the race, not just during. And the way that I was doing that, and I’ve done it just subconsciously since then, is I think about what it’s going to be like when all the training’s done, the race is done and what I’m going to do afterwards. And then almost build it up as an exciting time to look forward to, especially when you’re really in the depths of your training, when you are so fatigued, all you want to do is just curl up in the fetal position and just not move and not talk and not do anything. And yet you’ve still got an eight hour bike ride to do and yet you know that’s just what you’re going to have to do. So then I’ll say to myself, I’m like, how good is it going to be when you can just learn the couch, play with the cats, talk to my husband, watch Netflix, that is going to be amazing. And so I built it up as this really exciting time. So then I can have this celebration

and I don’t have to, yeah, I don’t go into that down, which is interesting because I have had that before in other races. So yeah, that’s kind of a bit of an unconscious thing that I was doing, but now I purposely, I do think about that. And then physically my recovery, after a big race like this it’s generally around about six months before I start to stop feeling that heavy fatigue. And I find that I get to a point, I’ll be back training, I’ll be back doing something, but I can’t kind of push into that high, high threshold, above threshold pace. It’s just not there, my body and my heart is just like, no, you’re good, we’re cat media, we’re, this is where we’re stopping. So like immediately afterwards, I was actually in much better physical state than I thought I would be. Like I wasn’t hobbling around like I’d been riding a horse for a week. Like I was actually able to walk normally well. I didn’t have any blisters on my feet,

which is an absolute miracle. Like that’s been an ongoing thing that I’ll finally crack the code for with my feet. So that’s been amazing. But it’s more just about the fatigue. So my husband and I were like, we’re in America and I didn’t know how long the race was going to take. So our flight home ended up being about a week later and we hadn’t really planned what we’re going to do. So we just kind of threw together a bit about, okay, this is what we’re going to do now. But I had to be really, really careful with my energy because I’d be fine. And then something I’d want to sleep. Like anything, like you’re turning a light switch off and I’d just be dead and be mid conversation. And I’ll be like, I just can’t talk anymore. It’s just too much. So it’s, yeah, it was interesting. And then my sleep was really disturbed. Like I’d be waking up at two, three o’clock in the morning, I’d be wide awake as if, you know,

it was first thing in the morning, ready to go. It was, it’s bizarre. And I think it took, I mean, obviously jet lag as well, but when I got home, you know, it was a couple of weeks before my sleep actually normalized a little bit again and I managed to get back into a bit of a routine. But physically I didn’t do really any exercise for about a month afterwards. And I just chill. I let myself do that. I let myself do whatever I want. I don’t ever put pressure on myself to go and do something because, you know, I’m going to lose my fitness or, you know, I have to do something. I should be doing something. I’m like, nope, if I don’t want to do it, I won’t do it. If I get the urge to do it, then I might, you know, I might give myself a day and check back and go, do you really want to do this? Yes, no. And if I decide I want to do something and I’ve done this before, like I’ve driven to the pool to go for a swim and I got out of the car and I’m like, I don’t want to do this.

I’m like, all right, got back in the car, drove home. Like it’s, I put no pressure on myself whatsoever until I start feeling like actually I want to be active and do something again. And then I call it exercise, not training to take that pressure off of it as well. So, yeah, that’s just a few things that I’ve done for years now, which really, really help with kind of my mental recovery as well because you put so much into it. I really just need to give my brain that time to decompress and de-stress afterwards as well as physically. Well, I guess it sort of balances out there, doesn’t it? Whereas, you know, when you’re training, it’s like you’re doing all the sessions and if you’ve finished late at night and then you get up early in the morning, you’ve got, you’re going to get up early in the morning. So when you’re not training for an event like that, it’s like you got free reign, you can do what you like.

And because if you’re going hardcore 12 months of the year, mentally, it’s not sustainable, physically, it’s obviously not sustainable either. So I like how you approach it. And I mean, I sort of take that approach. It was like when I’ve trained for an event, I love having those intense times where you’re motivated to do it, you want to do it. But then it’s great to have that downtime too. And I like one of the things that you’re looking forward to is just sitting on the couch and watching Netflix. It’s one of the best feelings though. When you’ve earned it, you know, you don’t feel guilty about it and it’s just, you enjoy it a lot more than if that’s your normal day. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, no, it’s exactly what, you know, you’ve earned being there, you know, can kind of bathe in a bit of glory about the whole thing, you know, can reflect on it and just, yeah, it’s a really fun time. I really enjoy that time.

As much as the training, I reckon, I think I do enjoy that just, you know, complete, relax, you know, whatever, not doing anything. It’s really fun. Yeah, absolutely. And what about now? Like, where’s your, where are you at mentally in terms of looking at another event? I read that you were, the event that you were training for was canceled. So where are you at in terms of what you’d like to do next? Yeah, so this year anyway, it was planned as a down year. Like, I wasn’t planning any massive events because I’ve been doing them for, like I’ve done five events, I think, or yeah, basically every year I took one year off because I had injuries and yeah, didn’t do anything massive, but I’ve done like five events pretty close together. So I was getting to the point where eventually I was starting to really crack when I was doing the training. And I’m like, all right, I needed long break after this because if I try and build up for another big event,

then it’s just, it’s gonna end really badly and I don’t want that. So yeah, I was gonna do an event in Samoa which was gonna be a bunch of races over a week and that was gonna be really, really fun. I was really looking forward to that, which is a lot less crazy and intense that I always have been doing. But yeah, obviously with, you know, flight restrictions and everything, I was like, all right, you know, that’s not gonna happen. And then at the moment, I’m in a bit of a holding pattern because there is no races that have been announced that interest me or that I really wanna do. And I don’t really know kind of what’s gonna be happening. So yeah, it’s an interesting time. But I found a little while ago, like when everything was starting to close down and all the races were canceled and everything, you know, I was starting to kind of have a bit of a moment of just like, well, who am I? What am I? Like I trying to race, like this is crazy.

Like I don’t understand what’s actually the purpose in continuing on doing anything at the moment. And so I did have this one particular run that I went on and I was thinking about, okay, so why did you get into sport in the first place? Like what was the initial attraction to it? And I thought back and I’m like, well, it was nothing about races. Like I didn’t even know about races when I first started getting into fitness and things. It was about trying to be fit, trying to be healthy, trying to be strong. And I went, okay, that’s still relevant. Like that’s still the purpose of why you’re doing this now. The races are a fun thing that get on top of that. So go back to basics. That is now, you know, why you’re still going. And my training at the moment has been a lot more focused on getting a lot more strength and, you know, a bit of speed because I haven’t done a lot of really targeted speed work for a very long time because, you know,

you do a little bit here and there. You’re not going to know that. No, no, no. When you’re racing for five days, you know, it’s not really funny. Just that statement alone, hey, racing for five days, yeah. Yeah, pretty much. So, yeah, like it’s been really different, but it’s been fun in a different way and really challenging in a different way. So I’ve actually been quite okay, like, you know, I had kind of a bit of a moment and I’m like, all right, how can I reframe this? And then, yeah, now I’m actually, you know, just waiting, really, waiting to see what happens. And because to me, I think the kind of races that I’ll be interested in that are actually going to be feasible are going to be like trail races and mountain bike races and things where people are spread out anyway. So I’m kind of waiting, maybe, if something like that comes up that interests me, then I’m like, okay, well, you know, I’ll see, see what I can do.

But for now, I’m just happy training and actually not having a race to have some kind of pressure to train for. It’s actually been really nice. It’s worthwhile enjoying those moments, isn’t it, when there’s no pressure and just enjoying the training for the training sake. It’s, and one of the good things that’s come out of this, and I think I was probably similar at the start. It’s like, when I had to stop coaching, stop swimming, it’s like, I had to sort of, you’ve got to check yourself. It’s like, you can’t have your ego tied up in something like that, where you could easily have it shut down. So if a lot of your identity and self-worth comes from that thing, you’re going to be in a bit of trouble. And it’s like, I’ve sort of been battling that a little bit. It’s like, well, I can’t do the stuff that I love and it’s really hard to manage that. So what are some strategies to sort of stay, stay on top of it and keep enjoying the things.

And so I’ve been going down to the Bay once a week and swimming there and surfing a lot more and still doing a little bit of online coaching. But still it’s, yeah, it’s hard when you sort of get that reality check. It’s like, all right, you got to come back to the real foundations of why you do things. And similar thing, it’s like, it is fun to just train, to be fit and to do new things as well. I’ve been doing a lot more strength training where I was doing number four. And so you mentioned you’ve been doing a lot of speed training some, like, yeah, why not? Because yeah, because normally that’s not going to be part of your training at all. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, my coach and her husband, like I’ve got to join business together. And that was set up. We’ve done three 5K time trial runs and we did them all four weeks apart and then just see if you can improve on your time each time. And like time trials are the worst.

Like I really, really, really struggle with them because I’m just, I’m not used to running flat out. I’m not used to that kind of level of pacing or whatever. So I’m like, well, you know, it’s something different which just kind of invigorating in some ways as well. But yeah, I absolutely take your point about identity. I’ve really made sure throughout my whole, like athletic career so far that I’m not a triathlete alone and that is itch. Like I am a lot of different things that all are made up in together. And I’ve had people over time, you know, ask me would I ever work in triathlon? Would I have a coach? Would I ever do anything? And I’m like, for me, I don’t want that to be my all in everything. Like I really like having different parts of my life being in very, very different focuses. So yeah, you know, for someone who like that’s it. It’s like, okay, so that is not who you are though. That is what you do.

And yeah, finding that identity outside of sports very, very important too. Yeah, absolutely. And I read one of your posts on your blog as well about imposter syndrome. Is that something that you felt had reduced after doing the Uberman event or it’s still something that comes, that crops up from time to time. And I think it’s, I mean, I don’t think it matters what you do, whether it’s coaching or competing. It’s like, it’s always there. And even you hear about the top athletes in the world, they still have that sort of feeling. It’s just, it’s such a funny thing. But yeah, if you, has that diminished at all or it still crops up?

It hasn’t gone completely. I don’t think it ever will. But no, it’s definitely, definitely dissipated a lot. So I remember when, because we had a little meet and greet because there was two other guys doing Uberman as well. And, you know, with their crews and things. Like I knew quite a few people on their crew for one particular athlete. So that was amazing to catch up with all of them. But I remember walking in and I said to myself, and I had the feeling of, wow, I actually belong here. And I’ve never had that feeling before. Like that was, that was really incredible to have that feeling. Because all like constantly as like, you know, there’s always really fit people. And then there’s me, like, what am I even doing here? Like I don’t belong here. Like this is, this is crazy. And like I’ve battled that so hard when I did Epic Five as well. And, you know, being the only female, I kind of felt probably extra pressure to prove myself

that, you know, I was tough and as strong and that everybody else is all the guys and everything. Like, you know, usually I don’t have a big gender focus on what I’m doing. Cause, you know, whatever, I just do what I do. Cause I love it and I want to do it. It doesn’t matter if there’s other females there or not. But yeah, I really, really battled with that. But I’ve found since Uberman, I’ve really learnt to claim my space in the world a lot more. And so I’ve even noticed like just physically moving through spaces and things. Like, I will, you know, if you’re walking in a straight line and there’s someone else walking directly towards you, you make eye contact. And, you know, the other person makes it very clear that they’re not going to move. I’m like, well, you know, we can actually give each other a little bit of space here. I’m not the one who’s going to shrink to the side just because you don’t want to move, because whatever.

Like, I find even those little things I’ve got a lot more confidence with. And I’m like, no, this is me, you know, this is me in the world and this is where I am. And I’m not going to be, you know, just kind of shrinking to just to accommodate other people around me. So yeah, it’s been a really interesting shift and something that I’ve kind of noticed over time that’s overhappened since Uberman. It’s given me a lot more confidence in ways that I didn’t expect to happen. That’s so interesting, because it is absolutely a thing. The way that you feel, the way how you think about yourself comes out in your body language. And then it projects out into the world. And one of our coach up in Sydney, Mitch Patterson, he, ex Australian swimmer, quite tall, quite broad. And he’s posture, ever since I first met him a couple of years back, his posture is always chest forward, shoulders back, just very, comes across very calm

and confident and with that sort of demeanour. And it really carries on with the things that you do in life. And so it’s awesome to hear that that’s, you know, something like that. All it took was a five day race to get you there, right? Yeah, nothing, nothing, it wasn’t a thing. Totally worth it.

And I mean, I saw you on the Rich Roll podcast as well, which is unreal. And what was that like for you being on that podcast, which is, you know, for most people in endurance sports, like that’s probably one of the very top podcasts and goes out to tens of thousands of people. Like how was that for you being on there? Yeah, that was amazing. So I had met him and done a podcast before with another girl, Danny Grable, because we’re the first two females to do Epic Five. I cheated the first two nights in the second. So I’d already met him. And when I took the first one, I freaked out. Like I was, it was really funny. So you sit down, you’re like, oh my God, there’s Rich. Oh my God, there’s a bunch of video cameras. Oh my God, what am I even doing? Like it was, I just, I was looking back at that and I just screamed. I’m like, oh, I can’t even listen to it. I just, I can’t, I can’t even. So I feel like the second time

I was able to be a little bit more relaxed and we were like, oh yeah, cool. I’ve done a few more podcasts now. So I get the rhythm of them a little bit more. I kind of, I feel a lot more comfortable talking to him and sitting across from him. And because it was just me as well, I kind of like, well, you just got to hold your own. Like this, there’s no two ways around it. So it was still pretty full on. And I was still like holding your fan girl, just calm down, just breathe. But yeah, I think it was much, much better the second time around, thankfully. And yeah, we had that conversation because I wrote that imposter thing after I did the ritual podcast and I was like, you don’t even belong there. Like who do you even think you are? And we brought that up during the podcast. And I sent you, I’m like, oh my God, I had the biggest meltdown. Like I do not have anxiety as a baseline, but I feel like I had a panic attack

thinking about that. And then, yeah, so this time around, thankfully. And I get so much amazing feedback, even still from people sending messages, saying they’ve listened and they got this out of it or that out of it. So yeah, it’s definitely an incredible podcast with a huge, huge audience. I can’t even get my head around how big his audience is. But yeah, it’s a really fun experience. Still intimidating. Do the people at your work sort of know, well, they obviously know what you do, but is there any sort of, do they recognize the things that you’ve achieved or is it sort of, do you keep quiet about it? Like what’s it like at work for you with all of the stuff that you did? They probably say you’re falling asleep at your desk and go, oh, you must be training again. Yeah, it’s funny. Like I don’t really talk about it at work because I mean, like I sort of love my work colleagues, but to be honest, if you’re talking to people outside of sport,

I feel like they can’t relate or they’re like, you know, oh, so would you know the weekend? I’m like, oh, you know, I just read for eight hours and ran for six and did a swim. And they probably say, oh, okay, yeah, great. Yeah, pretty much. It doesn’t trigger like, that’s a massive weekend. No, I mean, like, yeah, there’s usually, oh my God, you’re insane. And then, yeah, you can’t really conceptualize it. So I generally don’t really talk about it. Cause one thing that I also do struggle with is that reaction of people just like, oh my God, like that really full on emotion that you get back when you tell somebody. And I’m like, yeah, cool. Wait, what do I do now? What do I say now? Like I’m getting better at that. I’ve had a bit of practice now. So yeah, I generally don’t really talk about that much, but I actually had one guy say to him the other day, he’s like, so I figured out what you’ve done

because he like, you know, explain it. And he goes, yeah, I didn’t actually really, it didn’t sink in. I didn’t really comprehend what you were saying. But then he’s gone away and spoken to his sister. And his sister’s like, oh yeah, I heard that episode on the Rich Role podcast talking to her. So he was like, you are famous in my household now, which is very, very cute. That’s awesome. Yeah, so occasionally there might be a few discussions, but to be honest, I generally just keep quiet about it. And if people want to know, I’ll talk about it and everything. After Overman, I did a very brief interview with the ABC radio and then that leaked around the office and there was a little article printed out and put out. I was just like, look at, look at what Mel did. So yeah, it is very sweet. That’s awesome. It’s the way to do it though. I think when people find out on their own what you’ve done and it’s not like you’ve been really sort of out there

just telling everyone, well, you won’t believe what I did. It’s like, it’s really, it’s a nice, that’s a nice feeling. And they probably come to appreciate it more that way too. But it’s funny because it’s, a lot of my friends are swimmers or triathletes and like I enjoy talking with them about their training, what they’re doing and like it’s for whatever, it’s just fun. You know, you like sharing that stuff. And then anyone who’s not in that world, they’re just like, there’s no connection with that. And it’s just like the end of that conversation. Like they just can’t go anywhere. But with someone who’s in the world and you’ve done it, you’re used to it as well. It’s just, it’s enjoyable to talk about it. So that’s why I think it’s, you need other people to share that stuff with because they can appreciate it. And you can really just talk for hours without seeing time go by because it’s just, you’re just in that world and you love it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And how did you fit it around your work? I mean, do you know how many hours a week we’re training? Because I think like for that sort of block hat, how many sessions a week were you doing and how’d you work it?

How many sessions? I think it was maybe like 13 to 15 sessions a week. So I’d have like two gym sessions. I’d have, you know, probably minimum like three runs, three rides, three swims and then whatever on top of that, you know, sessions that I was doing. So, yeah, I think that’s probably it.

It’s one of those things like, thankfully, I used to do shift work, but I don’t anymore. And to be honest, you know, people’s like, oh, isn’t it so much better working, you know, like not shift work hours? I’m like, well, you know, you do what you can with what hours you’ve got. So, you know, either or. Like, I think night shift is the worst when you’re trying to balance a heavy training load around night shift. I think a few years ago I was doing maybe like 20-hour weeks around night shift and that taught me that I can survive on no sleep and, you know, still work and still function. So that was actually really good learning. Not really recommended to do it on a full-time basis. But this time round, my training, I think my biggest week absolutely would have been the 100K week that I did and that was getting up almost to 30 hours. I think that was maybe like 27, 28-hour week. And then I backed that up with another 20-hour week.

So that was pretty full-on. Thankfully, I have a job where I can sit down at my desk and do work and then, you know, I come and go. But if I really need to, I have the ability just to get really focused in on what I’m doing. Like, even if I’m completely exhausted, I can just kind of push that down to deal with later and still be able to actually be a functioning person at work, which is very helpful. But I mean, I’d be training twice a day every day, basically. So my work starts at 7.30 and I finish at 4. So I’d be up, you know, 4.35 every morning, you know, do maybe an hour and a half, two-hour session, whatever it is. And then I’d get home from work and do another, you know, an hour and a half, two-hour session. And then on my weekends, so that could like, I’d either work, you know, Friday, Saturday or Sunday, Monday, just depending on what my roster was doing at that time. So my weekend, I just would have massive training blocks.

So a lot of the time, my coach was getting to be right, getting me to ride in the hills. So I’d be driving out to the Dany Nong’s or driving out to King Lake and just doing hill repeats because I find that if I have to make a lot of decisions, I really struggle with decision fatigue because I work in a very stressful job sometimes. And then, you know, training on top of that, when you’re absolutely exhausted, if I’m riding the Dany Nong’s and I’ll say to myself, where do I wanna ride? Which hill do I wanna ride? I’ll end up going, I am way too tired to make this very basic decision. I’m just gonna do hill reps for eight hours and I don’t care. And that is fine because I can go to my car, I can refill, I know where the water is, I know what everything is, it’s fine, I’ll just do that. So I try and set up my life as much as possible where I don’t have to make decisions. I just have to do what I need to do. So like that’ll be to the point where I even do it now,

like it’s even such a habit. I’ll even like pull my work clothes out. It’s just, yeah, it’s such a habit. But I’ll get my sports clothes out the night before every single night. So then I don’t have to think about what I’m doing. All I have to do is just grab the pile of clothes, get changed, then get out the door or whatever decision I’m doing. So then again, it’s taking that decision about where is everything, try not to wake up people in the house, having to do all these small steps. It’s like all of that’s taken out. All you have to do is get up as soon as your alarm goes off, get out the door and get moving and then deal with it later. And then at the end of my working day, I’ll get home and I’ll get changed straight away because I know that if I sit down on the couch, I have to then make a decision to get off the couch. So I cut out that, I just get changed straight away, jump on the bike, go for a run, whatever session I’m doing.

If I’m doing a swim or go straight from work to the pool, I won’t come home because again, then it’s a decision to leave the house. So I find if I stop and think to myself, do I really want to do this? The answer is going to be pretty much no because I’m really tired. So I don’t ask myself that question. I just go and do it. And it sounds like such a small and simple thing, but it’s the difference between doing the training and not half the time. Like it’s just, if there’s no negotiation in your mind and you don’t allow yourself to ask that question, then you’re going to do it. And I do a similar thing with get exercise clothes out in the morning and same thing, I don’t want to wake up my wife, don’t wake up the kids. And I want to, I need to get out of the house without causing too much of a stir. And then it’s just, it’s so much easier as well. So it’s five minutes at night can save you half an hour in the morning sometimes.

And especially as soon as you sit on the couch, like for me, I’ve found it really hard to get any work done after about sort of 5.30.

I used to be able to work through the night, but now it’s like, no, I get home and if I can’t do work after 5.30, it’s just, it’s too difficult because my mind’s just going, no, you’re done. Like once you come in and you’ve had dinner, yeah, it’s hard to do. So I think I love all those little mental tricks that you’ve sort of, that you know, that you understand, you see what they are and you can recognise them and just continue to do them to get the training done. Is there anything else like that that you use to do the training or anything else that you realised over the last couple of years that you trick yourself into doing the hard things? I’ve got so many.

Yeah, so there’s a bunch of different things, just depending on what the circumstance at the time is. One thing that I really, really cognisant of is not voicing out loud a lot of things. So I have a rule that I’m allowed to, you know, complain as much as I want in my head, but I don’t voice it because then it becomes my reality and then it’s something that I then have to deal with. So, you know, if I’m running and my legs are aching, you know, I’m feeling horrible. You know, just not loving life at that point in time. I’ll generally, what I do is I do a body scan. I’m like, okay, so physically, how am I actually going? You know, like top to bottom, you know, what’s going on? Is there anything that I need to urgently deal with? You know, is there any issues with my feet that I need to manage? Is there, you know, like something that I can just practically do at that point in time to fix? And, you know, if it’s not, then I’ll be like, okay,

so maybe I’m feeling bad because I need to eat. So then, you know, I’ll have something because that’s generally always my first point of call. If I’m not feeling great, it’s probably because I’m low in calories. So just eat something and then give it a bit of time. But one thing I really don’t do is I don’t try and force myself out of feeling bad. I remember once my coach said to me, she’s like, oh, you know, like, you know, when you’re not feeling great, you know, like just try and think of other things, you know, try and think of something positive, you know, try and work yourself out of it. And I was like, that doesn’t work for me. I am actually quite comfortable sitting with discomfort. And so what I do is I just sit in, you know, the uncomfortable for a while, try and problem solve, and then, you know, know that eventually the feeling’s gonna go away because every feeling always moves on to something else,

you know, you’ll feel good, you’ll feel bad, you’re never gonna feel good the whole time. So then how can you, you know, manage and, you know, when you’re not feeling great and try and figure out what’s going on? So that’s one thing that I absolutely do. I also, if I’m not feeling great, I’ll try and look up and around where I am because I also find, especially when, you know, you’re riding or you’re running or something, you’ll kind of go into yourself and you’ll look down and you won’t really take in your surroundings at all because you’re just not feeling that great at that point in time. I mean, obviously it’s harder when you’re swimming and in the oom, man, I was swimming in the dark. So I was like, look around at what? But yeah, I find that that also can be quite nice and destructive because a lot of the time I pick races in places I’ve never been to before because I just wanna, you know, go there and experience it.

So I’ll be like, actually appreciate where you are at this point in time because you’re not necessarily ever gonna come back here again. So, you know, look around, take in the scenery, take in, you know, the landscape, the amazingness of wherever you are and the amount of kilometers that I went across with Uberman and the amount of different landscapes that we went through is just absolutely incredible. So that was really, really important for me as well just to have that sense of appreciation of this is where you are, be here where you are, don’t, you know, kind of forward project into what’s gonna be and, you know, then start kind of get worked up about what’s gonna happen if you don’t start to feel better. But I know eventually, you know, I will. I’ve got a couple of ones that I use depending on what the weather is. So in heat, if, you know, you ever see pictures of me as, you know, you can see now I have very pale skin

and I have red hair. I’m not built for desert running at all. But what my previous coach, Craig Percival, he said to me once, he’s like, because I always used to give feedback in my training. I’m like, oh, it was really hot. I didn’t do that well because it was so hot and I don’t cope well in the heat. And he said to me, he’s like, well, you’re going to Hawaii. It’s going to be hot. Figure out how to deal with it. I’m like, ah, right. Okay, it was the best advice I’ve had. So I went, okay, how do I mentally deal with the heat? So I came up with a few different strategies about, you know, again, going back to not giving it a voice. So I never say it’s hot. And if anyone comes up to me and is like, oh, wow, it’s really hot, I automatically have built in a response and say, oh, it’s not that bad. Cause then, you know, I’m just immediately not even engaging in that. And just going, oh yeah, isn’t it? And then you suddenly, you can feel the heat

and it’s, you know, again, you’re giving it a voice. So I don’t ever, don’t ever acknowledge that. And I also do a couple of other things where I will, you know, think about the sun, especially when it’s really intensely beating down on you. And I just think and I’m like, thank you. You know, this is amazing. And I just imagined that the sun’s actually giving me energy and like, I’ve got some solar panels on me or something and it’s actually like super charging me to continue forward. And I find, yeah, just having that kind of sense of gratitude around it and just, you know, reframing it. I do a lot of reframing, I realize that recently. I was like, you do that a lot. I’m like, oh, do I, oh yeah, actually. So I find that really helps. And the other one that I really like is when it’s really windy. So if I’m on the bike and I’m riding into a really intense headwind, I think about how Forrest Cump, the movie, which is so random, I have no idea where this came from.

It was just one day I must have just come to me. So I think about that. And I think about Lieutenant Dan. And I think about when he’s on top of the shrimp boat in the middle of the storm and he’s in there yelling and he’s like, is that all you’ve got? You know, like, I can take it. And I just think about, and like, one thing it makes me laugh and then I just relax and it’s a bit of a tense in the headwind. But also then I just start challenging the wind and I’m like, well, come on, like, I’m still moving. Obviously not doing good enough job here. So yeah, there’s a bunch of things that I’ve just come up through with over the years. Like some things have come to me, some things I’ve made up on my own. But I find just, yeah, all these little things just help as I go along. I love it. I don’t know if you’ve seen, have you seen the Jordan Docko on Netflix? Yes, oh my God. It’s awesome, isn’t it? And just one of my favorite parts about that is

he’ll take anything and even make stuff up, kind of like you make things up as a way to fuel his fire. Like he’ll pretend like someone had said something about him and then that fires him up and it gets him ready. And I was listening to a swimming podcast and it was, who was it? So Grant Hackett, I think in, he had the 1500, I think at Pampax one year and his attitude normally going into that race is I am like, he’s there to win it and win it by as much as he possibly can. A real competitor and at this Pampax meet, he was tired, he’d raced a lot in the last two weeks and he said to one of his teammates, Brett Hawke, I’m just going to, I’m just going to go in there to just, just to win it. And that’s it. Like he wasn’t driven to really do that well. And so his teammate, Brett Hawke said, and he made this up. Like some of the guys from the American team were saying like, you know, this is like, we’re going to, we’re probably going to beat Grant here.

Like this is, this is our chance to beat him. He hasn’t been beating for so many years. And like he said that talking smack about him. And that pissed him off so bad that he went out there and just obliterated them. And he got out of the pool and he was still angry. And after he did like, I think the post race interview, Brett had to go over to him and tell him that he made it up. Cause he was still walking around like, like some of his friends from the other teams had said stuff about him. But it’s, yeah, it’s things, it’s tricks like that that can, can really do wonders. And I think, yeah, as a coach or as a friend, it’s like, yeah, if you can really buy someone up with the way that you know is going to get them going, why not use it? Absolutely. It’s really interesting. People always talk about what their why is. You know, why are you doing this? Like what’s, what’s their, you know, underlying reason to keep going.

And I’m like, if it’s anger, use it. Like it doesn’t have to be a positive thing. It doesn’t have to be, you know, something nice and rainbows and sunshine. If it’s like you are angry as hell, doesn’t matter. Harness it, use it. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, that’s right. And you see it particularly with a lot of, a lot of high level athletes is that, like a lot of times they’re driven by, by maybe, you know, frustration as a kid. Like maybe they need to want to prove themselves from, because as a kid, they maybe bullied or whatever it could be. It’s like, we use that as your fire. And I think as you get older, like you start to, you maybe realise that and you can change your approach a bit. But I think it’s a good way to stake the fire if that’s what gets you going. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Mel, thanks so much for being on the podcast. And I mean, you’ve got a blog where I look back, you’ve got a, you’ve written for a very long time,

which is amazing. So do you want to give your details and where people can find out more about you? Yeah. So my blog is rangamel.wordpress.com. So, yeah, rang are for those not in Australia. It’s memorable. It’s, oh, it really is, it really is. And it was so funny, I was explaining to some Americans they’re like, I don’t get it. Like, they’re okay.

Yeah, so my Instagram is rangamel and I’ve got an athlete page on Facebook as well, which is our policy area ultra endurance athlete. So, few places. Awesome. I’ll put those links now, show notes. And I appreciate you being on the podcast. Thank you, great chatting. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me on. Thanks for listening to the Effortless Swimming podcast. If you’d like us to help you become a faster, more efficient swimmer, go to www.effortlesswimming.com.