It’s just about finding this calm and you have to calm in the storm is always your exhale. And if the one thing people can take from this podcast is prioritize your exhale because your inhale will come and it’s much more intuitive. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast. My guest today is Alex from AB Physiology. Alex, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, man. So a swimmer that I’m coaching introduced me to you. So Alison, she said I’ve been doing some breathwork training with Alex and he’s really helped me improve my breathing in the pool in swimming and I think it’d be good for you to have a chat to him. So I reached out to you and we’re able to coordinate this and just sort of chatting before this podcast and just via email it sounds as though there’s a lot of crossover

from what you do and how you approach things to how I like to approach swimming, coaching and working with people. So for those listening to the podcast, what’s your what’s your background and how would you describe what you do? So technically I’m a clinical exercise physiologist. I removed the exercise part from my brand as AB Physiology and I did that because most people would get fixated on that first word and then conflate myself with glorified personal trainers or stratification in coaches. And I went to university for an undergraduate degree in exercise science. I did a miscellaneous unit then study neuroscience and then got a clinical master’s degree in physiology. So I wanted to try and separate that and a lot of what I do now

on the outside doesn’t quite look like the traditional thought of exercise. So I’m a clinical physiologist and the way I view this job is we sit in the pocket between the highly objective physical practices of like physiotherapy and osteopathy in the traditional senses and the more subjective psychological practices of behavior change because as a physiologist my primary tool to help an individual achieve their health and performance outcomes is behavior change. And a lot of people I’ve found live on one side of this. They are either highly objective or highly subjective and I don’t like to talk to each other very much. So I’ve tried to sit in this middle pocket and I was very fortunate for a few years I was running a team of clinical psychologists and physiotherapists with a physiologist at myself. I was heading up a team there working with our veterans and it was a really really enlightening experience and extremely

helpful as a practitioner as I got to play in a team and getting that team to run smoothly was my responsibility and it was difficult because in health that is difficult. Multiple practitioners working together can cause problems. I was fortunate to have a fantastic team around me and I got to grow so much as a practitioner and when I finished there that’s when I branched off and I started doing my own thing. I do lots with breathing mostly with MMA fighters in terms of athletes and jujitsu due to my background in jujitsu and I also work with those who are ill whether it’s PTSD, anxiety, depression or with people on the NDIS. I work with everyday people who just want to get better at managing stress and I’ve kind of over these years funneled it down to being like a stress and adaption specialist whether it’s physical or mental stress there are ways we can learn to adapt and overcome these things to give ourselves a

better chance to succeed and that’s where I come in. Use your physiology to your advantage. And that stress you’re talking about a lot of people that I work with particularly those that are new to swimming they encounter that when they either first start swimming there’s that panic of like you’re in the water it’s an unfamiliar environment and the stress levels rise particularly for open water swimming and in a race environment where there could be hundreds or thousands of other people around and that really can sort of set people on edge so I think that would be a good thing to maybe dive into to first is what are some of the strategies that you use with the people you work with to help them stay calm in those situations? I almost always start off by trying to paint a picture around stress that the person can understand so communication and language is really really important particularly when people are vulnerable or you’re talking about

situations where they’re going to feel vulnerable so and the more I can get someone to understand what we’re trying to achieve from a physiological standpoint the better so I try and narrow everything or bring everything back to this concept of stress when it’s a mental health point of view or an emotional point of view all the names we have like anxiety depression PTSD all these different things they’re all create a physiological stress response under the hood so under our skin things start happening and they mirror what happens when we’re physically stressed if you take someone having a panic attack and you took their vitals it would look very similar to someone who’s exercising because the person who’s exercising has the context of them moving their body they have this higher demand of themselves so I narrow all these broad things down to stress and what happens when we’re stressed our heart rate goes up our blood pressure goes up our arousal goes up our breathing rate goes up

our sense perception goes up and of all those things one of them we can actually tap into

one of them we have we can exert direct control on and that is our breathing so I kind of use breathing and stress is this analogy of an explosion and how in a combustion engine that tiny little explosion is contained controlled and drives everything so our car can go forward if that explosion wasn’t contained the car would simply blow up human beings are combustion engines and stress is our tool or our driving force but if it gets out of hands we all kind of know what happens then it’s a good analogy I like that one and so what do you find when

what do you find I guess either the level of awareness of people’s breathing is when they first come to you for the for the general person is it something that they’ve typically never really considered yes and it’s often upside down it’s upside down in a sense if I get them to place a flat palm on their chest and a flat palm on their belly and take a quick full breath in their top hand will rise and their belly will hollow out okay so they’re lifting their chest their stomach’s pulling in and that is literally upside down in the sense that when we inhale our diaphragm is supposed to move downwards our ribs flare out and we have this expansiveness of building from the bottom to the top so the first thing I often find is they haven’t taken a proper breath in recent memory or if ever and once they take maybe 10 of these they immediately feel a difference in themselves they feel calmer they get lightheaded just because

mindless breathing will get you through your entire life but that doesn’t mean you should do it and they’re often quite people are often closed off to speaking about breathing or changing their breathing because they’re like I’ve been breathing my whole life and I’m still here like what are you gonna do to those people I say you can also drink a bottle of vodka a day for 30 years and live doesn’t mean you should and they often listen a little better after that but yes it’s literally upside down so getting that bottom-up expansion is where I have to start because we need to build this primary foundation which utilizes our lungs in the way they’re supposed to be used because they’re essentially giant wet sponges hanging in a cave and all that blood sits at the bottom of our lungs and if you’re only heaving from your chest and your upper thoracic

we’re really tipping the cup out 20% filling it up tipping it out 20% filling it up so there’s always quote unquote dirty air because we aren’t cinching our waist squeezing that air out to allow that next breath to spring in so yeah that’s probably where I start yeah and it’s I mean I’d never really heard of it or considered it until I went to a it’s like a surfing breath training course with a guy named Baldwin in Newcastle yeah and I think he’s up on the Gold Coast actually where you are so yeah and he was talking about diaphragmatic breathing and he went through some exercises to help us start to develop that and yeah that was a couple years ago but I’ve never really heard of it or considered it before then and what are some let’s say one exercise that you might take someone through to just begin to learn to breathe from their diaphragm diaphragmatic breathing is one of those funny ones in the sense that it’s always

working if it wasn’t working you wouldn’t be breathing like it is the primary movement it is the primary job it’s just sometimes it gets clouded by our use of accessory muscles so simply placing two palms either on the side of your belly button so like on your oblique kind of area or making a little C grip with your hands and cupping the bottom of your ribs trying to set your shoulders down and find this elongated posture and then trying to inhale and only focus on your ribs expanding outwards is a really easy place to start and when what’s more important is once you felt your ribs flare out that’s one thing but as you’ll find that over this podcast if I get my point across that I want to you’re exhaling is everything exhales the goal and that’s when I should come back together since our ways as you can see in that video my ribs really flare open and more importantly they’re almost accordion back together doing 15 or 20 of

those while you’re sitting by the pool or before you start to go anywhere and starting to feel this very two-dimensional idea although breathing is very very three-dimensional by just simply focusing on this lateral expansion this lateral movement this is where most people are restricted particularly for looking at swimmers or triathletes who have limited overhead range and they often feel really tight through their side body just starting to open that up and you mentioned in your email and it’s very true for breathing and everything really it’s a balance of relaxed and active movements mostly when they’re breathing just too stiff all the outside superficial stuff needs to be soft you need to feel this expansion grow and build from the inside and that’s why I said a sponge before as well because if you imagine our lungs as balloons balloons are flimsy and easy to collapse a sponge soaked full of air

those little air pockets are early they’re backed on top of each other and they create this giant surface area like if you were to flatten our lungs out for gas exchange just the same size as the tennis court right but if we aren’t fully expanding and fully contracting we aren’t letting air inflate all of those and we aren’t using that inherent force we can produce and actually breathe like most people struggle to breathe at the tiniest of weights on their chest yet I’ll work with fighters next door and myself and we have to try and find a breath or someone’s trying to ties into in half like a pretzel we can’t be in a perfect you know perfectly stacked pelvic and rib position all the time we have to be able to breathe in compromised positions as well and if you can’t breathe sitting down and you can’t feel that expansion sitting still or laying down for you to expect your body to find that kind of space and

utilize this gas exchange efficiently under pressure or stress whether it’s physical emotional how do we do that so that’s why everything starts seated everything starts calm and we build our way to more and more challenging things such as breathing through your nose and going for a walk and trying to breathe in for four and out for four while you walk and think Jesus that’s difficult yeah I like that approach have a similar approach when it comes to people going from being a pool swimmer and they want to learn to swim open water so just start with the most basic the easiest possible version of that and then progressively we can just expand what our comfort zone with it so if you know if I couldn’t be there with them it’s like well all right find somewhere that’s flat it’s safer in the open water but you’re swimming just along the shore and then we can maybe go a little bit further out and then we

can start to swim in conditions where it’s not flat there might be a little bit of wind chop and that sort of thing it’s like just start with the easiest possible version and go from there and I mean in terms of breathing like with jujitsu right it’s want to be it’s probably the the number one sport where you’re probably limited with your with your ability to breathe but it’s it’s so important when you’re in any of the sort of submissions and you look at someone like uh Volkanovsky right the recent UFC like he got out of those two um that I’m not too familiar with jujitsu terms but he managed to breathe his way through it and and escape these these two submissions and it was it was incredible that he that he got out of it so in a high stress situation like that and I’m sure you’re putting yourselves in yourself in those daily um what do what are you sort of thinking about or working towards when you

find yourself in those sort of situations it’s an grace you mentioned it on a recent Joe Rogan podcast and it’s what I tell everyone when it comes to the performance element of breathing and breathing under stress is like you need to find your exhale people skip straight to the inhale they start grasping at the air like that causes you to panic and if we’re like inflating like that and we’ve got this pressure in our head that makes it worse so when I’m in a very deep problem I’m just thinking about staying calm so I’m thinking about slowly exhaling I keep my tongue firm to the roof of my mouth I keep my shoulders and ears all shrugged up so because chokes like what Volkanovsky was in the guillotine in the triangle they don’t cut off your airways they cut off the blood supply to your brain it’s not a choke across the front of your throat it’s a choke across the side of your neck we’re trying to turn off the carotid arteries

that makes you go unconscious I don’t know what he was doing like he was his training partner for the tough season he was on Craig Jones as an Australian grappler initially from Adelaide in Melbourne who now lives in Austin Texas he’s one of the best guys in the world so he was beating up Volkanovsky like every day for months and he’s one of the greatest grapplers who came from the former greatest grappling team so it’s more of a testament to Craig Jones and what he would have been putting Volkanovsky through and also Volkanovsky’s mindset the dudes of Savage and he willed his way through that in a way that will put him in the history books for that reason and it’s just about finding this calm and I think you have to the calm in the storm is always your exhale and if the one thing people can take from this podcast is prioritise your exhale because your inhale will come and it’s much more intuitive

for example if you sit up tall right now and exhale out your nose humming until you’ve squeezed all the air out it’s a really gentle hum that only you can hear if you squeeze every little drop of the air with that hum then this relaxed your belly your stomach should pop back out again and it’ll initiate the inhale and then you can keep driving it up from there

that’s what that’s the anchor the anchor is breathe the air out let it come in breathe the air out let it come in we know how to inhale we’ve prioritised it our entire life we have this oxygen bias culturally carbon dioxide has the worst PR and marketing some of all the major gases if you turned on the news or the internet you think it was killing everything but it’s also what trees need to breathe and if we didn’t have carbon dioxide in our blood the oxygen would never get off of our red blood cells we need these opposing forces and like we were mentioning like he was mentioning this morning inhale dominance is a problem balance is in the middle but to find the middle you’ve got to explore fully the other side and because with triathletes and swimmers there is this obvious inhale dominance the that’s the thing that allison got to was that learning how to cinch her midsection and squeeze the air out similar to what i was saying before with that humming and trying to squeeze every

drop out and then let go and feel your ribs kind of pop and like with your swimming effortless swimming effortless breathing begins with really focused efforts you don’t just jump in the pool and be like i’m going to do it effortlessly now and you just swim like no there’s very specific things you touch on that you have to first grasp and hold on too tightly to understand and then you learn slowly over time i can let go and i need 10% of my focus to achieve what you used to take 80% of my focus that’s how you find effortlessness so you find where you’ve got to relax where you’ve got to be tense and then you kind of dance with your breath you don’t fight it that’s what i tell MMA guys don’t fight your breath fight to do it across from you you have to dance with your breath it’s a give and take yeah it’s uh when i originally started effortless swimming it it was it was about that it’s like you know effortless swimming takes a lot of effort or a lot

of work to achieve and it’s that being able to manage yourself under pressure and and keep calm and and keep your breath calm while you’re exerting yourself at a very high level so it’s does take a lot of time and focus to get to that to get to that point and i guess that sort of almost answers the question i emailed you saying that recently a lot of swimmers have worked with have been having trouble breathing every so let’s say five strokes it’s like breathe you know one two three four five and they breathe on the other side and that’s only about five seconds apart yet a lot of swimmers tend to struggle and they can’t do more than 50 or 100 meters breathing every fifth stroke or sometimes we’ll go like six or seven and what without i guess sort of knowing uh without being a swimmer yourself what do you would you potentially put that down to because it’s not a fitness thing these people can run and ride forever

but i would imagine it’s something to do with their breathing when they’re swimming

i feel that the carbon dioxide tolerance will be playing a factor in this uh have you heard much of carbon dioxide tolerance a little bit but uh like to know more the concept was brought in front of me by brian mckenzie and rob wilson from shift the depth these guys from the states i did that out of breath course a few years ago and it really sparked my interest in the breathing even more because it was backed on top of a lot of training and performance and also at that point like seven years of yoga with breathing and mindfulness being a huge part of that philosophy so they kind of sparked my interest in this and then it was obviously built on my prior university education and clinical practice and our body’s ability to tolerate elevated carbon dioxide is a reflector of our bodies of our ability to tolerate stress through all sources now i remember doing a co2 tolerance test on a age level try out like a

Australian level of like traffic masters like 30 to 35 and her co2 tolerance score was super low like insanely low and i was thinking like that’s interesting because i knew it didn’t reflect fitness but i was also surprised i’m like you swim like there’s breath holding involved in swimming but if we’re kind if we swim and we’re just kind of having a controlled panic attack for you know however long you need to swim for people are incredibly resilient i come back to the i barely did the drink a bottle of vodka a day our body will adapt so improving our swimmer’s carbon dioxide tolerance i’m sorry an athlete’s carbon dioxide tolerance

maybe the first place i would start with someone who was struggling to say hold their breath or do you have them exhaling while they’re swimming are they holding they’re obviously exhaling with a bubble stream for those five strokes yeah we typically the way i’d usually want someone to breathe is uh they’ll take the breath and then they’ll have a light exhale through their nose and then just before they turn to get their breath in we want a full exhale from that from the nose um so that’s how we would normally want them to be yeah to be exhaling but not breathe out everything straight away which is another sort of problem that some people have because then they sort of run out of air while i’ve got three strokes or four strokes left yes and uh the co2 tolerance says that the the guys talking which is like this is essentially you take three tidal breaths in and out through your nose you inhale a fourth time and you time

your slowest most complete exhale without starting stopping or swat without stopping starting or swallowing and that’s how you test the co2 tolerance already you can see the connection with what you’re asking them to do and what the test is itself now i forget the numbers i guess again the shift-adapt guys on instagram have all this really good content to check out

most people will get under 30 seconds for a time to exhale and again that’s like trickling it out your nose going so slow you almost can’t even feel it leaving there’s a bunch of imagery and stuff you can do and obviously it’s a test so there’s like practice like repeating the test will make you better at it but i now know for myself my baseline is a minute 30 if i can’t exhale

one breath in a minute 30 that’s shorter than that i know i need to have a rest my nervous system is a bit fried my best is up close to two minutes for an exhale and that reflects a bunch of things co2 tolerance are pulmonary control like respiratory control like the ability to like just slightly open the valve the back of your throat and let that air trickle out so slowly that you can maintain that and almost you feel your body almost shrink and then curl almost in on itself when you’re very fatigued or very like carbon dioxide has come up that i think is what they are struggling with and improving their carbon dioxide tolerance would be the best place to start that’s that’s good and i mean it’s yeah when we’ve got these these five core principles of fast freestyle the very first one is is breathing and being able to breathe relaxed and we focus on that and it’s um it’s something that i think people are very willing to skip

over because they like you said i know how to breathe right it’s uh and i’m fine with it but there’s so much more to it like you’re mentioning and i mean for you when did you first start learning about about breathing and and then going down the rabbit hole of you know just really sort of expanding your knowledge on it and then training other people to become aware of it and to improve their breathing similar to what you were saying i started doing yoga because i worked at a coffee shop under a really well-known yoga studio and that the girls had always come in on their training and i was doing it they were learning how to be yoga instructors and i’d help them with their anatomy and physiology because i already had an undergraduate degree in exercise science so i’d help them out and one of the girls on her first class was like do you want to come to my first class you’ve never done yoga before so if i’m shit you won’t know and i was like sure and i’m walking out of it like floating out

of the other class and like wow i’ve never felt more relaxed looking back now it was the breathing more so than the movement but everyone catches on to the movement side of it first that’s when i first started being exposed to it and over the years i was more and more open to it because i’ve just done hundreds of hours of yoga so i started listening more to the philosophy and trying to separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of what’s a bit more grounded in reality and what’s a little bit too often a willow end instead of just throwing the baby out of the bathwater like most people can tend to do with things and i got better and better at breathing and then when i started doing jujitsu six years ago you learn how to lose your breath there because when you’re a white belt you’re in an actual fight so it’s just like controlled spazzy panic attacks for like six to eight months you’ve never been more fatigued than after

your first round of lives aspiring in jujitsu doesn’t matter what sport you’ve done if you never fought another person it’s a whole different kettle of fish right and three years ago i went to the art of breath course by the shift of doubt guys and they really like the way i described what they did was they connected all these dots forming like i had these dots laid out from my understanding of physiology i had these dots laid out from training from yoga and they came along and they painted this beautiful picture as to where when i finished that one day course i was supremely confident i’d be able to teach it i wouldn’t be able to do the things that they could do in terms of their applied application this year to tolerance test but in terms of the theory of it it just on was like oh shit it was a very big oh shit moment from now i started applying it religiously to myself and i started telling my best mates who are uh so who got me into jujitsu

but calling him being like yeah i’ll learn some shit i can tell you and he’s a father of two full-time tradie trains when he can i accidentally tore his bicep he’s peck sorry completely off the bone four weeks ago so he’s currently in a rehab process but he’s a savage and i’ve been trickling in this nose breathing stuff bottom up carbon dioxide tolerance just whenever i could because i never would appreciate it and he he texted me recently saying that he had a bit of a head cold couldn’t breathe through his nose so he’s doing his runs mouth breathing and he could only drop his heart rate 30 beats in the minute post run without using his nose when he got his ability to nasal breathe properly back he can drop his heart rate 70 beats in a minute post run

so i got my mma fighters next door who have a minute between rounds they’re dropping at 60 beats

right so once i saw the power of the recovery element to this in that setting i was like oh geez and then when i started applying this to my mental health patients so patients with PTSD for example having worked with veterans previously and now working with a few other clients that have it from other sources their whole stress response is dysregulated and like i said the only thing we can tap into directly one to one is our breathing you can’t tell your heart to slow down you can’t ask your arousal to be more manageable and focused you cannot touch that stuff but you can touch your breath and i can drop my heart rate 20 beats at rest with one exhale and that’s this stress response we’re talking about and that’s way harder done when you’re moving or when you’re in the moment but it’s a reflection of this skill set that if you spend the time doing the breathing and your your athletes should pay attention to the

fact that that’s first i’m sure you put things in order for a reason the same way every word i’ve tried to use here is a word for a reason there’s a reason breathing is number one because if that’s shit everything else is shit then you’re just building capacity on dysfunction and the end of that race is an injury or not achieving your true potential whichever comes first and and for you what’s an insight into what how how you think about your breath within a day so i imagine you’re probably training jiu-jitsu most days you’re working with with clients most days what does what does a day in your life look like in terms of what you’re thinking about your your breath because i know for me personally right i coach swimming uh every day i’m working people on their technique and so when i’m in the water and i’m i’m swimming i’m always kind of going through these things in my in my head and i think i’m more highly

attuned to it because i am um coaching others and because it’s just what i do day to day so how does it look for you really similar because i listen to what i’m saying to people and i try and practice that’s what i preach most a lot of practitioners i find struggle to do that uh but i really really try and live what i’m asking people to do so i think get up in the morning have coffee i’ll sit on this i’ll sit on the front veranda and do just a little bit of breath work my partner and i do about 10 minutes to get a little time run and we just have our own little stuff we like to work through whether it’s like intuitive box breathing or i might do some yogi breathing techniques of over breathing we might play with grim Hof stuff there’s so many things to play with it’s like reps and sets of gym once you understand a bunch of things you can kind of tailor make your own workout but i also try to not lose it throughout the day

like i i just try and i’ll check in every now and then with this and i’m always breathing through my nose that’s the damn sure i don’t use my mouth unless i’m in a big problem

big problems or fighting black belts or people trying to kill me that’s when i’ll start chipping into my mouth but the same time when i start to my mouth i don’t want to disrupt the pattern i don’t want to go into that chest breathing breath and it’s all the things i’ve told you other things that are happening in the back of my head like find your exhale when i do strength training my mouth’s glows when i do my cardio my mouth’s glows like i run i use the ski erg the aerosol bikes the concept to rowing machines all of that stuff is nasal breathing to me because it’s all about building my capacity with my mouth shut i don’t need to be the fastest runner i don’t need to do any of those things i need to be able to step on to a mat stay calm and execute my goal which is to submit my opponent and by having that not caring about how fast i’m going in that ego check when it comes to those things my breath is the key focus because like i said it helps with everything

so my day is and then when i’m back in when i’m working with clients i’ll be queuing them as well and the simplest thing is just keep your mouth shut don’t just keep your mouth shut and slow down

that’s what i remind myself of all the time if i’m running and i’m starting to get a little bit heightened and too high and losing my composure i might do a big a few big breaths out my mouth and then get back to nasal breathing and i when i’m running i inhale for four steps and exhale for five steps right and that’s both in and out through my nose again date fast but it’s just the pace that i can find and by slowing down you get into the zone and like i was saying before the balance is in the middle somewhere you need to find the size of breath or the volume of in versus out to keep your output and your arousal lined up so a lot of people when they become too heartened and stressed they’re breathing like so their respiratory rates up here and their outputs here and they’re just this dysregulation when i was learning this shit i went the other way i was under breathing for the problem i was in and i could hold on to that for a while but then

it would hit me like a ton of bricks because and humans mostly overcorrect our first correction is almost always an overcorrection so i literally under breathed for the fighting i was doing so i’d roll about spa for four minutes and then the buzzword ring and i’d be like

shit and i have to try and get my breath back instead of finding where i needed to be and that’s what i think swimming in triathlon and triathletes have is that it’s just you your mind and the the the discipline that you are in yes you’re racing other people but if you can just like find in out in out for the what you need and i tell you it’s always exhale more once you find that you’re getting this happy point that allison might have mentioned to you where from figuring out that cinching exhale she noticed her heart rate had gone down her swimming speed had gone up and her stroke rate didn’t change right and that’s the epitome of efficiency because you’re going faster and everything’s getting easier so and that was just coming down again to that exhale focus and her being able to connect the dots with that last point you say oh if you trickle the air out and right before your body rolls at the breath in

forcefully expel the air that’s hard to do but once you found that with your coaching cues that all were like kind of all dots aligned and then you’ve just got this very happy lady who’s really enjoying her swimming now yeah that’s right um alex i really appreciate you being on the the podcast and for those listening who would perhaps like to get in touch with you to maybe work with you one on one or yeah learn more about what you’re doing what’s the best place for them to do that best place is head over to instagram ab underscore physiology on my website ab dash physiology dot com shoot me a message or an email i do zoom consults or face to face consults uh when it comes to the the breathwork specific things i’ve got like a set of protocols we run through there’s like an initial testing that gives us our first protocol which is like kind of the crawl before you can walk and i space them out about once every two to

four weeks depending on progression and once you’ve gone through the four to six protocols depending on what you want you’ve got all of these tools in your toolkit to create like i was saying before like a reps and set style thing with breathwork as well and it’s such a handy tool to have not only for performance in the moment but helping you recover and downshift between training sessions like those boys dropping their heart rate 50 to 70 beats in a minute back come on like if you can stretch that out over like you’ve got a three-day session and you can bring your heart rate down and you can stay in that rest digest and recover uh state the longer we’re in there the more chance of to kind of fill up our cup to go again so yeah through zoom face to face in the girl already i g on the website fantastic well alexa i appreciate it i’ve certainly learned a lot and and i really enjoy this sort of stuff because it’s easy i mean i find for me it’s easy to

forget about it because there’s so much going on but when you do come back to your breathing it really sort of simplifies things and it helps with everything else and i find this with swimming find this with surfing when i’m out there when it’s a bit bigger and um yeah and this stuff is uh is very valuable so thank you very much and uh i’ll make sure you’re all those links are in our show notes and we’ll um yeah take when the episode goes out so i appreciate it thanks for having me man really appreciate it thanks for listening to the effortless swimming podcast if you’d like us to help you become a faster more efficient swimmer go to www.effortlesswimming.com